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 Post subject: August Althing Agenda
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:11 pm 
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List items for consideration to be added to the August 23 Althing.

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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:58 pm 
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V8 changes
Due to V8 passing there are a few items in our corpora that are obsolete or need updating. Here are the ones that I have noticed so far:

1) Change all references from "Class Masterhood" to "Paragon" and alter X.B to refer to the Amtgard Rulebook regarding Paragons. Including removing the table of obsolete favor colors.

2) Remove all references to "Relics" from the corpora.
AND
Add V.B.10 Monarch: "May distribute Magic Items at his/her discretion. See the Amtgard Rulebook for specifics about Magic Items" And renumber other items appropriately.

3) Change II.A to: "The Emerald Hills credit system allows a player to be able to
(normally) earn a maximum of 2 (Two) attendance credits in their chosen fighting class per week (The Amtgard “week” starts on Tuesday). A player may earn 1 (One) attendance credit per day by attending a regular gaming day at an Amtgard Park. Fighting class credits require playing the chosen class in a battlegame. Players who Reeve may instead earn a Reeve credit. Players who attend, but do not participate in combat (or have reached their fighting class attendance credit maximum for that week) instead earn a Color credit. Note that special event credits do not count towards the maximum. Full credit award breakdowns are listed in the following table:”
AND
Remove "Fighting practice" from the table in Section II: Credit System

(Fighter practices giving partial credit are gone, you get a full credit per day, period. In order to maintain the current limit of 2 class credits per week, and to make sure that someone still gets counted as attending for record-keeping purposes, I added the bit about color credit for their 3rd+ credit in a single week.)

Not V8 related

4) Decree that Midreigns and Coronations (normally) award 3 Credits.

(Is it 2? Noon Friday to Noon Sunday is 2 days. Or is it 3? Friday, Saturday, Sunday is 3 days.)

5) Remove VI.C Kingdom Ombudsman. And renumber other items appropriately.

(For many many reasons. The main one is it's a tough challenge to find someone willing to serve that is universally viewed as impartial. And it is unnecessary because the Amtgard Ombudsman is more visible, and is not involved in the EH in any way. He truly is an impartial outsider)

6) Change Class Guildmaster terms to be open ended. The term may be ended by the Guildmaster resigning, being removed, or a new election may be called for by 3 dues paid members of the guild to occur at the next crown elections.

(The allows the most knowledgeable person about the class to be the go to person for information and testing until they are ready to step down. And not the first person to declare for every GM slot.)

7) Change VI.F.5 to clarify what "participate" means: "One must have received a credit in a guild in the past six months in order to vote for or run for that class guildmaster"

8) Change VI.F.9 to: "Guildmasters may be removed from office by a 2/3 vote of all dues paid members of that guild, or by joint agreement of the Monarch, and either the PM or GMR"

9) Change how subgroup size is determined to “Average weekly attendance: The number of players above the age of 8 that sign in at a given park during an Amtgard Week (Tuesday to Monday).”

(This will better reflect the number of potential participants on any given Park day. This will allow visitors to count towards the average, but tie it to weekly player attendance at that park, rather than monthly resident participation.)

10) Authorize the Monarch to spend up to $4000 to purchase a storage trailer for the kingdom property. Any overage may be submitted to the next Althing for reimbursement.

11) Clarify that the EH Zero tolerance policy applies to any Amtgard event and not just Amtgard events held at Tanglewood Forest.

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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:41 am 
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I would like to request an addition to state that Bans should only be used as a last resort, and add community service as suggested punishments.

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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:58 am 
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We don't address punishments in our corpora at all. The only thing adding punishments would do is remove options from the monarch, and de-legitimize the only Amtgard wide approved punishment laid out in the rulebook.

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The V8 mindset is not about "what is the minimum I can get away with doing" but rather "how can we all use these rules fairly so the game runs smoothly and we all have a good time."


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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:31 am 
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Elder Vermilion wrote:
de-legitimize the only Amtgard wide approved punishment laid out in the rulebook.


so from this statement, am I to understand that banning is the only thing we can do to someone per ROP?

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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:40 pm 
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That would be like saying that the only awards we could give out are the ones in the ROP. No, the rulebook if anything states that the Monarch (With the agreement of the PM or GMR) has a large degree of discretion. We don't need to enumerate that the Monarch (With the agreement of the PM or GMR) may use that discretion in other ways to enforce the Acceptable Conduct Code. But to say that the Monarch (With the agreement of the PM or GMR) CAN'T use an enforcement technique specifically enumerated in the ROP is problematic to say the least.

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The V8 mindset is not about "what is the minimum I can get away with doing" but rather "how can we all use these rules fairly so the game runs smoothly and we all have a good time."


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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:15 pm 
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But why would you not put guidelines in the corpora on alternate methods of punishment more suited to EH. Was is the harm to bring it up to populace if this is something EH desires


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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:47 am 
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Draeven wrote:
I would like to request an addition to state that Bans should only be used as a last resort, and add community service as suggested punishments.


The problem i see with adding that in as it's worded would be: the people that are getting arrested and charged with committing a violent crime (which so far those bans have been set with an end date of 'review when the court figures out if the person is guilty or innocent'), or people who are crossing the line into being abusive (sexually or physically in which case you don't want them around the victim). If this isn't a safe place for people to come how many people are going to keep coming? How many parents are going to let their kids keep coming? If we want our game to grow and live on we need the younger generation. Banning is not only a 'go think about what you've done and come back with a better attitude' type of punishment, it sets a precedence that these actions are not welcome. There are some cases where some another form of punishment could get the same accomplished, but stating banning as a "last resort" would tie their hands in cases where it shouldn't be tied.

There are some things where the situation can be resolved with out banning the person, and some sort of service to the game can be requested which is why two kingdom officers have to discuss the situation before a ban gets put in place and if they deem some other course of action appropriate they can institute that instead.

If you think that the reason these alternative options aren't being used is they don't think it's an option then might i suggest that you rephrase your suggestion to "When appropriate, alternatives for banning players are community service to the game such as..."


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:05 am 
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^^^^^ This.


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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:29 pm 
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Althing Ballot:

1) Change all references from "Class Masterhood" to "Paragon" and alter X.B to refer to the Amtgard Rulebook regarding Paragons. Including removing the table of obsolete favor colors.

2) Remove all references to "Relics" from the corpora.
Also add V.B.10 Monarch: "May distribute Magic Items at his/her discretion. See the Amtgard Rulebook for specifics about Magic Items" And renumber other items appropriately.

3) Change II.A to: "The Emerald Hills credit system allows a player to be able to
(normally) earn a maximum of 2 (Two) attendance credits in their chosen fighting class per week (The Amtgard “week” starts on Tuesday). A player may earn 1 (One) attendance credit per day by attending a regular gaming day at an Amtgard Park. Fighting class credits require playing the chosen class in a battlegame. Players who Reeve may instead earn a Reeve credit. Players who attend, but do not participate in combat (or have reached their fighting class attendance credit maximum for that week) instead earn a Color credit. Note that special event credits do not count towards the maximum. Full credit award breakdowns are listed in the following table:”
Also remove "Fighting practice" from the table in Section II: Credit System

4) Decree that Mid-Reigns and Coronations (normally) award 3 Credits.

5) Remove VI.C Kingdom Ombudsman. And renumber other items appropriately.

(The main reason is it's a tough challenge to find someone willing to serve that is universally viewed as impartial. Also it is unnecessary because the Amtgard Ombudsman is more visible, and is not involved in the EH in any way and so they are truly an impartial outsider.)

6) Change Class Guildmaster terms to be open ended. The term may be ended by the Guildmaster resigning, being removed, or a new election may be called for by 3 dues paid members of the guild to occur at the next crown elections.

(This allows the most knowledgeable person about the class to be the go to person for information and testing until they are ready to step down. And not the first person to declare for every GM slot.)

7) Change VI.F.5 to clarify what "participate" means: "One must have received a credit in a guild in the past six months in order to vote for or run for that class guildmaster"

8) Change VI.F.9 to: "Guildmasters may be removed from office by a 2/3 vote of all dues paid members of that guild, or by joint agreement of the Monarch, and either the PM or GMR"

9) Change how subgroup size is determined to “Average weekly attendance: The number of players above the age of 8 that sign in at a given park during an Amtgard Week (Tuesday to Monday).”

(This will better reflect the number of potential participants on any given park day. This will also allow visitors to count towards the average, but tie it to weekly player attendance at that park, rather than monthly resident participation.)

10) Authorize the Monarch to spend up to $4000 to purchase a storage trailer for the kingdom property. Any overage may be submitted to the next Althing for reimbursement.

11) Clarify that the EH Zero tolerance policy applies to any Amtgard event and not just Amtgard events held at Tanglewood Forest.

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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:16 pm 
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I disagree with #9. We changed it FROM the weekly average because it was such an issue. Events hurt your park. Visiting other parks hurt your park. Doing anything on a weekend but going to your park hurts your park. By having a unique sign in as the way to count numbers, you encourage participation between parks that meet on the same day because travelling on a weekend to another park doesn't hurt your numbers.

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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:36 pm 
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While I don't disagree with unique sign ins, the current system hurts our parks. It only counts unique sign ins of that park's residents. Travelling to another park instead of your home park hurts your park. If you put on interesting stuff that draws additional attendance, only resident sign ins count for your park. It seems very counter-productive to what we try to accomplish in Amtgard, which is, in my opinion, participation.

Kel


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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:33 pm 
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Unique sign ins per month mean it only hurts your park if the person doesn't show up at all that month. The proposed change would mean that any time you visit another park on your park day, it hurts your park. Plus we discussed this when we made the last revision, if visitors count, then we can have the same people going to Sat and Sun parks, and boost both numbers. Should 1 person be counted twice?

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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:19 am 
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Here is the thing. You are using the word "Hurt." I have heard people say "punished."
I do not see it that way at all.
I think that the purpose of Park Status is neither a reward nor punishment. It is merely an indicator of your current size. That is why it changes via numbers instead of park age, or some other milestone.

Now what should "Park Size" represent?

Currently it represents how many active residents you have. Which I fail to see why that is useful information.

If, as I think, the number should represent how many players can be expected to be at a park on any given weekend, then it needs to be changed to average weekly attendance, and include visitors.

And that is why I have an issue with the current method. When it was proposed I did not anticipate such a large difference between average weekly attendance and monthly unique residents. But the current scheme allows a park with an average park day attendance of 15 to qualify for Duchy And at the same time a park with an average park day attendance of 45 to NOT qualify for Duchy if the park only has 35 residents.

And lets be honest, most people don't care at all what their park status is, only if there are people at their park to fight with, or talk with. And the more people the better. Who cares if they are residents of that park? We don't have resident only battlegames.

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Brennon wrote:
The V8 mindset is not about "what is the minimum I can get away with doing" but rather "how can we all use these rules fairly so the game runs smoothly and we all have a good time."


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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:15 pm 
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Location: Red Storm, Dreadmoor, EH
While I can see how the current system may lead some people to expect to see, say, 40+ at a Duchy on any given weekend, I can't see how changing our current system will change that. The only way that I can see this being the case is if the status of each park is evaluated on a week by week basis and status changes made at that time. Otherwise, when the park goes through the inevitable ups and downs, there will still be no guarantee that a person showing up at the park will find the number of people that their status suggests.

Also, if visitors are going to be counted in the same way as a resident at a park, what is the point of having a "home park"? Wherever you wind up going is where your numbers will be counted. Thus, the populace no longer become residents of a park but residents of the kingdom. At that point, maintaining a "park status" becomes irrelevant. This brings up the problem of "who can run for office?" If I am splitting my time between Red Storm and Riverstone, appearing, in equal parts, at both parks, can I run for an office in either park? What happens if I do a really good job as monarch in a park that started out as a shire but is pulling Duchy numbers by the time I leave office? Am I now qualified for Lord or Baron? For that matter, who can vote in the election?

As you can see, I feel that the problem with this is more about visitors being counted in the numbers than how those numbers are counted. I do feel that taking an "average" tends to cause a parks numbers to be shown as artificially low rather than give a true number of how many people can be found at the park on a given week. Depending on how the numbers are counted, if a park has a normal park day on saturday and "fighter practice" on Tuesday, do you count each day as a separate sign-in for purposes of the average or do you add them together, counting all attendances in a given week as one number? If so, then a park with a fighter practice with 15 people and a regular park day of 25 would still be considered a Duchy and someone expecting to see 40 people would be disappointed. However, if one were to count the days as separate, then you under-report that park's numbers and may discourage parks even having a second park day or fighter practice.

What I propose, if there is going to be a change to how numbers are counted, is to go to a system where each park submits a single sign-in in a given month for purposes of determining status. This way, a park may be able to advertise that day as their primary meeting day so those who want to visit a park and find 40+ can do so if they pay attention to either facebook or this message board. It is the best of both worlds, in my opinion.

In the end, I don't feel that the reasons given are strong enough arguments to sway my thinking toward average and away from unique sign-ins.

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