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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:11 pm 
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No one declared for Champion this reign. Two reigns ago no one qualified for champion. We have not had an election for champion ever since we moved it to an elected position. And before that I cannot remember the last time there was a champion tournament.

In addition to gaining the fringe benefits of being a High Officer; It can already count toward or qualify the holder for: Crown belt, Warlord, and TWO unique titles.

The responsibilities are relatively light: run two tournaments, run two quests, keep the Lost and Found, Run weapon checks, rate armor.

What stops you from running for champion?

What can be done to make the office more appealing to you?

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:49 pm 
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Historically we didn't have contested "elections" for Champion because the best fighters in the kingdom agreed who would do it. If somebody sub-par stepped up then a good fighter would knock them out and do the job. The position was a mark of honor that the rest of the good fighters in the kingdom felt you were competent enough to represent the kingdom as Champion.

Now that we've changed it from a right-of-arms contest to an election nobody has any interest in being Champion; The title itself has no value. Despite what is written in the rulebook, an elected Defender title does not count towards Warlord in the eyes of other Warlords. It also doesn't hold much weight with Crown knights.

If you want to fix it, change it back to a right-of-arms selection. Better yet, change it back to a right-of-arms position and integrate them more tightly into court. Make them explicitly the head of the monarchs guard. Make them in charge of event security (what little is needed). Empower them to create a culture of actually checking weapons on a regular basis instead of just randomly and fitfully. Enforce actual rulebook legality in equipment.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:34 pm 
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^^ This

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:45 pm 
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Brennon EH wrote:
Empower them to create a culture of actually checking weapons on a regular basis instead of just randomly and fitfully.


How could this be accomplished?

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Brennon wrote:
The V8 mindset is not about "what is the minimum I can get away with doing" but rather "how can we all use these rules fairly so the game runs smoothly and we all have a good time."


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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:25 am 
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I haven't held Kingdom Office so bear with me but this topic caught my eye and I want to present a counterargument.

I disagree with the Office of Champion being a right-of-arms position. Now that it is an elected position I feel that there is a better variety of people who can do the job. If you make it so that only the good fighters can get the position my worry is that we won't get as many awesome questlines and the like. Not to mention that people already get awards for fighting and winning in tournaments. They're called Orders of the Warrior and the epitomy of that is getting the honour of being called a Warlord and through that hopefully if it is deemed right the honour of being given the title Sir "Insert name here" Knight of the Sword.

I do however like the last part about the Kingdom Champion being in charge of the Monarchs Guard, being in charge of what security is needed for an event, and being made to check weapons all the time as a regular Park Champion should anyway. Getting more responsibility is one way to get more to want to run for the office.

I guess what I am trying to say is that making the position more exclusive will limit the amount of people qualified to actually get the job, the physical job, done. Winning in a tournament has nothing to do with getting the physical job done. Also making the position exlusive to only good fighters will make it so that only a select group will get the position. Being a Champion isn't just about fighting, it's about being a Champion of the People as well.

As to answer how to create a culture of checking weapons and armor on a regular basis it starts with us. We do it and then we pass it down to our upcoming Champion. It's already a responsibility, if it isn't done the others within the monarchy should address this concern with the Champion. If it isn't followed through there are already ways in place to move towards taking people out of office. You want to create a culture of it don't let up on it.

Thank you all for your time.


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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:03 am 
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Elder Vermilion wrote:
Brennon EH wrote:
Empower them to create a culture of actually checking weapons on a regular basis instead of just randomly and fitfully.

How could this be accomplished?


Section V.E.4.b of the Corpora...
Emerald Hills Corpora wrote:
Checking all weapons and armor for safety and legality

or if the Corpora isn't a good enough source, from Page 2 of the V8 ROP:
V8 Amtgard Rules of Play wrote:
Champion: Assists the monarch by running fighting
tournaments, organizing battlegames, and checking weapons
and equipment for safety during their reign.


Not only is the Champion "empowered" to do this... it is their responsibility. It is not an issue of empowering them with the ability/ authority to do this.
Are we discussing:
    the willingness of the Champion to do this?
    The populace listening to the Champion when they make these decisions?
    Or is this simply a suggestion to the populace to constantly remind the Champion(s) to be checking weapons often?

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:09 am 
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Point #2 that I wanted to address:
Brennon EH wrote:
If somebody sub-par stepped up then a good fighter would knock them out and do the job. The position was a mark of honor that the rest of the good fighters in the kingdom felt you were competent enough to represent the kingdom as Champion.


Really? Brennon, I've never know you to be the Rose Colored Lenses type of person. Are you sure you want to stand behind this statement rather than just admitting that it's the ideal we tell ourselves?

Some evidence against your point before you answer... before we started voting on Champion
Spoiler! :
50 12-12-15 13-06-15 Thrasher
49 12-06-09 12-12-15 Draeven
48 11-12-17 12-06-09 Famous
47 11-06-25 11-12-17 Everlast Buttercup
46 10-12-11 11-06-25 Connor Sleight
45 10-06-26 10-12-11 Darkangel
44 09-12-19 10-06-26 Skullband
43 09-06-20 09-12-19 Aidan
42 08-12-13 09-06-20 Everlast Buttercup
41 08-06-28 08-12-13 Aidan
40 07-12-15 08-06-28 Vandred
39 07-06-30 07-12-15 Morgan Ironwolf
38 06-12-15 07-06-30 Blaise DeMorray
37 06-06-17 06-12-15 Everlast Buttercup
36 05-12-17 06-06-17 Shef*
35 05-06-18 05-12-17 Nicodemus
34 04-12-18 05-06-18 Solace
33 04-06-19 04-12-18 Kerb
32 03-12-20 04-06-19 Brennon Viridian
31 03-06-07 03-12-20 Everlast Buttercup
30 02-12-14 03-06-07 Rant
29 02-06-22 02-12-14 Ice of Redhawk
28 01-12-15 02-06-22 Tunear Sebeth
27 01-06-16 01-12-15 Brennon Viridian
26 00-12-16 01-06-16 Kayrana Lissa
25 00-06-10 00-12-16 Talen
24 99-12-11 00-06-10 Blank


This list only goes back to the Spring Reign of 2000. In that time frame we had Morgan, Vandred (who had been playing less than 18 months when he became champion), DarkAngel, and Draven as our Kingdom Champion. I don't know Vandred, and I consider Morgan and Draven friends who contribute greatly to our game. But I find a hard time believing that 'the rest of the good fighters in the kingdom felt they were competent enough to represent the kingdom as Champion.' We have not had a Champion since 2004 who either already was or eventually became a sword night. From my perspective, there are many people who would not have been Champion if it had been contested. The difference of voting on Champion versus fighting for Champion would only have changed who would have run against them.

Are we seriously suppose to believe that The EH COK would consider somebody for a Sword Belt if they had 9 Orders of the Warrior and had served as Champion? I'm relatively confident that if such a person existed and they had fought into the position, that the answer would end up as "You've won 3 tournaments. Win one more." I say this regardless of if Champion is voted on or fought for, I believe that this particular argument only holds water if you actually think that there is a possibility of the EH COK giving a Sword Belt to somebody based on their term as Champion. Very few of the Champions since 2000 have become Sword Knights, and to the best of my knowledge all for their fighting skills not because they were a great Champion.

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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:21 pm 
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Tigger. I think your confusing things that were to things that are now. Back then it took 2 of 3 things to be qualified for sword. Weapon master...defender...warlord.... a soft sided qualified person was a weapon master and defender ( ie champion who earned the title). Or a hard side who won weapon master and earned a warlord. Since the inception of ladder awards that has changed. Thus the defender title should have changed as well. But it did not. It's usage isn't in line with our current awards ladder. But neither is this argument. The discussion was for the position of champion and how to make it worth either fighting for or being filled by competent players. With the decline of amtgard in recent years for the Hills....it's not a matter of fighting for the position but rather will someone fill the position. We have had some near kingless reigns. Our kingdom bickers and berates the pointy hat position and burn people out who felt the need to step up.
Some one once told me that a standard amtgard player is 5 years or less. Much more and they burn out and leave. Those that hang on longer are the anomolies. So the goal therefore is to energize our kingdom. Make the position of leadership worth having. Now answer HOW we can do that...not what happened on our way to the now.

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:02 pm 
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Dark Tigger wrote:
Not only is the Champion "empowered" to do this... it is their responsibility. It is not an issue of empowering them with the ability/ authority to do this.
Are we discussing:
    the willingness of the Champion to do this?
    The populace listening to the Champion when they make these decisions?
    Or is this simply a suggestion to the populace to constantly remind the Champion(s) to be checking weapons often?


The issue is that right now our culture is to check weapons when something goes wrong. We also have a culture of "well, sure it busted my knuckles, but it's probably fine."

If we want to have the Champion do his or her job, we need to change to a culture where checking weapons at the start of each game is normal and encouraged. It only takes a couple of minutes, and it cuts down on broken knuckles and bruises.


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:21 pm 
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I think you've misunderstood my point. It isn't that they had to be good fighters, it's that the good fighters had to believe they would do a good job as Champion. Most of these people weren't going to screw up weapons safety and could run a tournament.

Good - 50 12-12-15 13-06-15 Thrasher
Acceptable - 49 12-06-09 12-12-15 Draeven
Acceptable - 48 11-12-17 12-06-09 Famous
Good - 47 11-06-25 11-12-17 Everlast Buttercup
Acceptable - 46 10-12-11 11-06-25 Connor Sleight
Bad - 45 10-06-26 10-12-11 Darkangel
Acceptable - 44 09-12-19 10-06-26 Skullband
Good - 43 09-06-20 09-12-19 Aidan
Good - 42 08-12-13 09-06-20 Everlast Buttercup
Good - 41 08-06-28 08-12-13 Aidan
Bad - 40 07-12-15 08-06-28 Vandred
Good - 39 07-06-30 07-12-15 Morgan Ironwolf
Good - 38 06-12-15 07-06-30 Blaise DeMorray
Good - 37 06-06-17 06-12-15 Everlast Buttercup
Acceptable - 36 05-12-17 06-06-17 Shef*
Good - 35 05-06-18 05-12-17 Nicodemus
Good - 34 04-12-18 05-06-18 Solace
Acceptable - 33 04-06-19 04-12-18 Kerb
Good - 32 03-12-20 04-06-19 Brennon Viridian
Good - 31 03-06-07 03-12-20 Everlast Buttercup
Good - 30 02-12-14 03-06-07 Rant
Good - 29 02-06-22 02-12-14 Ice of Redhawk
Good - 28 01-12-15 02-06-22 Tunear Sebeth
Good - 27 01-06-16 01-12-15 Brennon Viridian
Acceptable - 26 00-12-16 01-06-16 Kayrana Lissa
Good - 25 00-06-10 00-12-16 Talen
Bad - 24 99-12-11 00-06-10 Blank

Out of this list, each time you see a good fighter show up it is likely because they were knocking somebody else out. I did it once, Kerb did it once, Everlast did it twice, Aiden did it once, Solace did it once. Those are the ones I remember off the top of my head.

Essentially the champion position had a built-in veto previously. It got used judiciously, but it did get used. If you compare a list of other kingdom offices I suspect that there were fewer bad champions than bad monarchs, regents, or prime ministers.

Quote:
Are we seriously suppose to believe that The EH COK would consider somebody for a Sword Belt if they had 9 Orders of the Warrior and had served as Champion? I'm relatively confident that if such a person existed and they had fought into the position, that the answer would end up as "You've won 3 tournaments. Win one more." I say this regardless of if Champion is voted on or fought for, I believe that this particular argument only holds water if you actually think that there is a possibility of the EH COK giving a Sword Belt to somebody based on their term as Champion. Very few of the Champions since 2000 have become Sword Knights, and to the best of my knowledge all for their fighting skills not because they were a great Champion.


I'm not sure we're discussing the same thing with this point. I can say that many monarchs would consider a player for Warlord if they had three kingdom level tournament wins and a Defender. I can also say that I received a sword belt for Weaponmaster and Defender (I received a Warlord shortly thereafter). Frankly, I don't think I understand your last point as it doesn't seem to be responding to something I intended to say.


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:50 pm 
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Brennon, can you explain your chart. I think the first number is the reign. The second the year. But I'm lost after that.

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:31 pm 
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Ice: He copied my chart. First number is the reign the next 2 are the start and end dates for the reign (dates are yy-mm-dd).

Brennon wrote:
If we want to have the Champion do his or her job, we need to change to a culture where checking weapons at the start of each game is normal and encouraged.


Ok, so changing the culture in the game in general. I can agree that this is actually the problem with most of the offices, Champion and GMR especially.

Brennon wrote:
I think you've misunderstood my point. It isn't that they had to be good fighters, it's that the good fighters had to believe they would do a good job as Champion.


Yes, I misunderstood your point. I thought you were coming from "this is how Champion qualifies you for a Sword Belt."

Brennon wrote:
I can say that many monarchs would consider a player for Warlord if they had three kingdom level tournament wins and a Defender.


This would be solved by the proposal out there for Masterhoods to need the advisements of the current Masters (that would include Warlord for everybody trying to keep up). It would also help with Master Garbers, Roses, etc.

Back to the original problem though. The culture of the game (holding champions to doing their jobs.. as well as other officers. Respecting their decisions as well.) is definitely something that needs to happen to make all of the offices important again.

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:31 pm 
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What's wrong with champion? Several things but first off the dichotomy.
At the park level you want a champion that is good at running battle games and making them interesting, not necessarily a strong fighter.

At the kingdom level they need to be able to run some battlegames but they must also run some tournaments. The concept of "defending the crown" requiring you to be a good stick jock is outdated. Just because you can win a sword tourney doesn't mean you'll last more than a few seconds in a full class event which all "defending the crown" scenarios are. IMO a good defender is a paragon.

Many of the reasons people don't want to do the job is apathy. You can't just turn up and win some fights you have to qual like the other positions and that takes work, apparently more work than folks want to do.


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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:01 am 
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This^^^

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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:58 am 
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In my view, Champion should be a right-of-arms tournament. More than anything else, the position of Champion indicates that fighting, safety, and honor are important. They are an embodiment of Amtgard's martial values. While the Champion may not be a premier fighter, they did represent the highest of the crop who could be arsed to hold up such a basic responsibility. Even after getting benched halfway through my term by surgery, I was able to limp through the rest of the reign and fulfill the minimum requirements. It's a job that can be done by just about anyone willing to jump through the hoops to do it. Despite the light requirements, qualifying is no less demanding than Monarch. For that reason, and others, I think it mostly attracts well-meaning candidates. So why not fight for it?

Winning the champion tournament is not, by itself, establish someone of being Sword Knight caliber. However, if someone has already excelled at the kingdom and interkingdom level, I can't imagine very serious balking at letting it put someone over. It's certainly a damn sight more dignified than a bunch of knightings for "field prowess" because the tournament brackets are so full of tough, active fighters.


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