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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:51 pm 
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Qintahr wrote:

"I don't recall having to oversee or help with any fighting events or fighting tourneys while Regent. I was strictly A&S, and it occupied all my time."
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I have done both while Monarch and as Regent. You never know where you will have to jump in and help. And asking someone to do 3 things over 6 months really isn't much. but at least it is in areas that are relevant to being in office. :)

EDIT: Also, when you qualify, you may not wind up in the office you originally thought you'd run for. If we make quals specific to each office, a player may not be able to step in to a different office when time comes to declare (i.e. a vacancy, or no one else is running for an office), and that is detrimental to the Kingdom.

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:58 pm 
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Thee wrote:

"Forest when you do put it for a vote can you do one of the options as the current a&s and the proposal together? I think these requirements would go good with our current system. I don't want to drop the A&s items for this, like we abolished the fighting part."
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The purpose here is to create a quals system that is relevant to the people running for office in that it shows their capacity to do the jobs that an officer would be asked to do. We dropped the fighting events because they were no longer necessary to qualify (i.e. you could have someone "champion" for you and not even be present at the park). Adding this, but leaving the A&S requirement creates an even bigger barrier to entry and (IMO) is unfair to players. Some people are already helping out and can whip up 10 entries in a day or two. other spend months worried about creating 10 A&S entries. Adding more on top of that would compound the problem, not fix it.

That being said, anyone can propose an Althing item for Moose to add to the agenda. You can always ask for an option of adding this in addition to the current requirements to be placed on the Althing.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:27 am 
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Granite Wrote: "Forest, would it be possible for someone like me way out here to earn the points necessary to get a Hydra under this system with minimal travel or does it necessitate travel by it's very nature?"
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Under this system, the minimum travel to qualify would be 1 Kingdom event (if you could do all three parts at 1 event). So some travel would be required, but we felt that was good since it is one of the components of being in office.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:58 pm 
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pzazz wrote:
Here are the concerns Midnight Sun has.

1. This proposal completely eliminates the need to prove you have time to work outside of park on park related stuff. Is there some other way to be sure that the qualifying officers are able to commit the time to being an officer once they're in office?


I would say the time commitment comes in that they would be at park, giving time to make things work. They'd be judging, reeving, and running things for the park. I think that is a better indicator of who is ready to be in office than if they spend time at home sewing or cooking.

Quote:
2. Midnight Sun can only qualify at Midnight Sun, another dutchy, or a kingdom event. Since the request is that each of the 3 categories are validated at different locations, that limits our ability to find activities to use to qualify. Could the travel requirement be removed for park level qualifications? If not, why not?


There is no requirement that says that the activities would have to be done at different locations. To qualify for park office, all you would need to do would be to complete the 3 requirements at your park. You could choose to do them at another park of the same level (Duchy for MS) or at the Kingdom level.

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3. Will there be a grievence method to counter if a qualifying event does not earn a "passing" mark? I feel that this method of having a current officer sign off on the event duties allows a lot of personal conflict and group cliquishness to manifest. If there's a way to have the failing mark evaluated, then it might be enough checks & balance against the cliquishness of the Emerald Hills.


There are already 2 levels built in. If the person you are working with (i.e. another reeve) does not sign off, you can go to the person running the event (i.e. the champion if you are reeving) if there is still no resolution, you may go to the park monarch. In case of a park wide issue, the Kingdom Monarch could always be asked to step in and help arbitrate, but I would hope that wouldn't be needed for park level qualifications.

I hope this helps to clear things up. :)

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:56 pm 
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Thank you! We have some further questions.

I've discussed with other park members and we decided that the A&S contests at all parks and kingdom level will still be of a certain quality, because judges will be required to have certification. Could you confirm that is true? Is that why the shadowing option is being presented? For tournament/battlegame reeving, is it reeve's qualified or shadowing to maintain quality?

Is there going to be a certain standard to be met for crating or subcrating? "Performed duties as expected" doesn't exactly touch on nuanced issues such as:
1. Last minute sasquatch take over of Atoka, and the event is relocated. If the relocation means less crats are needed, but you did all the prep work and planning, are you still granted "performed duties as expected" or will you have to start over at a different event?
2. A Warcrat at a kingdom event releases a promising schedule of battlegames and tournaments. Then, when the day comes the tournament runs long and they decide just to scrap the battlegame(s), even though there are people waiting to play. Do they still get credit even if the people waiting to play think they failed at their job?

I guess what we're looking for are some clear guidelines as to what makes a successful crat and what does not. You hit on it a bit with 3.iii and 4, but it still seems very arbitrary which doesn't make for a solid standard to judge between players.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:32 pm 
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The certifying of judges is part of the other proposal, but if that passes, then yes, this could be a way for someone to work on getting certified and meet the requirements for office at the same time.

As always, to reeve, you must be reeve's qualified. if not, you may still shadow reeve, but simply passing the reeves test will allow you to reeve, and shows the voting populace that you know the rules.

As for what would count, it is not outlined specifically for 2 reasons:

1.) There is no way to cover all the "what if" scenarios that might arise during an event.

2.) It is up to the person you are working with to determine if you fulfilled the obligations set forth (reeveing, judging, etc.) and since all events are not the same, it is left to the discretion of that person to determine if you did the task at a satisfactory level. This is also why there are at least 2 levels of arbitration available in case of a dispute.

As for scenarios where things get cancelled. If someone is running for office, the responsibility lies with the people running the event / hosting the tournament, to ensure that those who are using it as a means of qualifying, have a chance to do so. I can add in some language to that effect (and intended it to be that way). I want to make sure that a player who is looking to qualify is not prevented from doing so because those in charge changed the agenda, or eliminated a position without offering an alternative to the player. (i.e. We are going to have to cancel the 3pm battlegame, but you can reeve the 1pm tournament, etc).

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:40 pm 
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EDIT: The OP was edited to clarify that park level qualifications may be done at your home park and that it is the responsibility of those running an event to make positions available to those attempting to qualify as judges, reeves, and crats.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:00 pm 
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As forest pointed out the certification of judges is part of the vectored judging discussion/proposal. These concepts are designed to go hand in hand but we are keeping them seperate so they are allowed proceed independently as needed. Not to derail this thread but we agree that we want to improve the quality of our A&S competitions but that specifically won't be handled in the quals all thing proposal we decide upon here in this thread. Feel free to bring this type of thing up in the other thread so it can be tracked and discussed there.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:07 pm 
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Could several area parks of all levels band together for tournie/A&S competitions to give all of them an "away" place to qualify? If 2 Baronies and 2 shores banded could that stand for a Duchy event? I'm looking for ways it be proactive.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:12 pm 
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Mezzie wrote:
Could several area parks of all levels band together for tournie/A&S competitions to give all of them an "away" place to qualify? If 2 Baronies and 2 shores banded could that stand for a Duchy event? I'm looking for ways it be proactive.

Interesting, so the concept is if multiple parks banded together and created an event would it or could it count.

I'm inclined to figure this out mostly because I want to see that level of participation across amtgard. It might end up too convoluted to do fairly but it's an interesting thought.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:10 pm 
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Thinking more about this.
The away clause is to "prove" your willing to travel. I think every monarch believes every potential monarch should be prepared to travel. I'm not sure we need to find a clause to allow them to not have to travel. In the above example the hosting park would not qualify for the away peice becaus they didn't travel.

I think of you can't travel you shouldn't qualify to hold office at the kingdom level, but maybe that's just me.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:55 pm 
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I think I got confused at the ER. I was under the impression that you had to put in 3 of each of the 3 requirements with only one of each at your park. What you are saying is that one each is required, but only 1 of which can be done at your own park or one equal or higher?

Also, say our park or another close park holds a multi-park competition A7S tournament, or fighting tournament day, could that conceivably count for 2? I'm asking because I see a combining of parks as a possible good thing in order to broaden the opportunities for all in the area, and for parks to get to know one another somewhere other than longer distance kingdom events.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:16 pm 
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You only need to do 1 of each at the Kingdom level. As a option, you may instead do each qualification 3 times at any park level, but if you do, only one of each may be at your home park. So you can Judge Dragon master (as an example) or you may judge 3 park level A&S but only one of those may be at your home park.

For park level you need only do one of each at your home park, but may also get one of the requirements done at another park (as long as it is at least your park level or higher) or at the Kingdom level.

As for combining, that wouldn't count for 2 (assuming you are trying to qual at the Kingdom level) unless the Monarch declared it a Kingdom level event (which is different from a Kingdom visit day at a park).

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:58 pm 
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As one of the people that take 9 months or more to qualify under the current system I am all for this. As I read it this has a ton of benefits for the game as a whole.

  • More A&S tournaments being run at the park level. Allowing people to get more feedback on their items before going to the kingdom level tournaments.
  • Would make it much easier to find judges for park level A&S competitions as people will want to qualify for office.
  • It would give the second kingdom level A&S competition (Currently called Crown Quals) back to the A&S people. We would not be losing anything here. We would not have all the entries from people trying to qualify for office taking up a ton of the judges time. Lets face it, the people trying to qualify are not usually trying to win Crown Quals, they are just trying to qualify to get into office. If you do the numbers, assuming that only a single person is running for each office this is no less than 30 entries that would no longer need to be scored by the judges. With a fewer number of entries the judges would be able to spend more time with each, giving more feedback and ultimately resulting in a better and more satisfying experience for everyone. As a funny twist we would now be putting the people trying to qualify for office on the judges side of the table!
  • With all the park level A&S going on we should see a higher overall quality of items being entered at the kingdom level A&S competitions.
  • More battle games being run by people not currently in office. This would make being a champion at the park or kingdom level a bit easier.
  • This is also a great tool for people currently in office. Find out who all is interested in running for office next, thus giving you a pool of people ready to help judge/run your A&S competitions or series of themed battle games without burning out a single person trying to do it all.
  • Also this will provide the populace more chances to see the people that are wanting to run the kingdom in action doing the things that will be required of them once they are in office before they get there.
  • Allows people who are not crafty at all, but are always running things and doing stuff a chance to be elected and shine at what they are good at doing! Just because you are a good artist or crafter does not make you a good leader but those that are good at running things and organizing events are!
  • We would actually see elections with multiple candidates much more frequently giving the populace a selection to choose from. This is huge win here folks. Here is an example of why this is so huge. As our system is right now if I want to run for a kingdom level office I put in months of work getting my stuff together and I qualify. Let's say that Forest also decided that he wanted to run as well so he put in his usual half day (darn Master of Mediocrity) of work and also qualifies. In the election Forest wins. Boooo! All the work that I put in to qualify for office has officially been wasted and I have to start over again. Now for an example of the new system at work. Forest and I have to put in an equivalent amount of time doing things for Amtgard. Along the way we both qualify. Go us! I win the election by a landslide (obviously, like he would ever win against me). but now Forest isn't out all the work he put in to qualify he can still run in the next election (or 2 depending on when he qualified). I cannot tell you the number of times that people ask around to see who all is running to decide if they are going to try. With the new system this would not be an issue.

I can't express how excited I am to see this being proposed as this is a area that is long due an overhaul.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:55 am 
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I have two issues with this proposal, the first being all or nothing. Why can't we do a two year trial period prior to making it a corpora change? Let's see how it will playout in real time prior to making it part of our process? We did this for the ROP changes, why not this which is at the heart of our corpora?

Second issue is with how Flame Belts are acquired. Right now, the consensus among knights is the wicked phrase "what has [insert name here] done lately? Have they autocrated a feast? Have they run gate for a major event?" If these services to our kingdom change to fall under the elements of qualifying, what is left for those seeking to do higher service? I can't imagine the KC seriously looking at those who have co-autocrated an event, or a feast, or a major event gate to be seen in the same light again. By this move, you defacto demote the level of honest service to that of qualifying to run for office.

So, please tell me how this will affect looking at the service of those who give very willingly, very heartily, and have done so for years. I see this as harming their ability to continue along a path we should be encouraging them to continue upon.

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