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Diestro
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:57 pm |
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:55 pm Posts: 638
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From the corpora:
1. The Regent shall choose the guildmasters of Arts and Sciences. Although the guilds will vary, the following are examples: a Arts - Art, Garbers, Literature, Minstrels, Theatre b Science - Heraldry, Sages, Engineers, Gladiators, Smiths
I think they can roughtly categorized according to whether they are done aesthetically (art) versus by a process or formula (science, but Heraldry definitely straddles the line. The new rulebook however states:
e. Owl: Awarded for demonstrating ability in the construction sciences of Amtgard. Weapon construction, armor construction, furniture, shoes, belts, etc. A first level Order of the Owl could be awarded for constructing your first legal and functional sword. A tenth level Order of the Owl might be creating a full suit of decorated and articulated armor, or introducing critical new technologies and construction advancements that affect the group as a whole. f. Dragon: Awarded for demonstrating ability in the arts of Amtgard. Performance, painting, sculpting, photography, cooking, banners, artistically focused garb, writing, acting, roleplaying, etc. A first level Order of the Dragon might be awarded for doing a good reading of a non-original poetry piece. A tenth level Order of the Dragon might be awarded for writing and directing an excellent play for entertainment at a large event.
That would seem to say that Owls are now strictly for construction, which would exclude "Sages" (whatever that is) and Heraldry (which would include blazoning, which is not construction, and actually making the design, that is, "banners" which are covered under the arts).
Which leads up to the big question: is cooking an art or a science? You can certainly "construct" a cake but it is not an artifact or process so much as the expression of a baker's skill.
And once issues are settled should we talk about ammending the description of the Guilds to align with the new rulebook?
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cynisca
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:08 pm |
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:03 am Posts: 373
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um, not to say that isn't a well thought out arguement. but i think everyone is over thinking it. i understand that some people like rules and black and white, but we live in a world of grey.
if ive learned anything about the Arts, its that they cross categories a lot. you can have your general rules and categories, but never forget to leave room for those that refuse to be defined by one thing; for those that combine disciplines.
_________________ member of Luna Lobos I Otta B daughter of Alby Girl Turtle of the Turtle Clan
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Diestro
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:58 pm |
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:55 pm Posts: 638
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I know, as a practical matter, as interim Regent, Duke, and Ducal Regent, I have been faced with trying to decide what award goes with what effort. I hope I haven't overthunk the issue; my aim is simply to think it. It may be of interest to people who have several Owls and Dragons and would like to make a concerted effort in one direction.
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TigerHawke
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:31 am |
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Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:23 pm Posts: 854
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Cooking is actually a lot of science. You combine ingredients ..a chemical reaction takes place and you get a cake or cookies or a souffle. It is also an art. The chef not only knows how to combine ingredients but how to present them in a pleasing manner for the consumer. A beautifully decorated cake would be an example or the presentation of Oriental meals.
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Connor Sleight
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:17 pm |
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:48 pm Posts: 269
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Awards would be based on the category they were entered. If you have entered the item based on recipe and taste, put that in the description on your card that you are shooting for flavor and taste. Likewise if you are doing it for decoration.
if it tastes good and looks bad, give it an owl. if it tastes alright but looks amazing, give it a dragon.
_________________ Squire to Sir Everlast of Buttercup
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Myth Of Reality
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:27 pm |
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Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:29 pm Posts: 166 Location: Fort Worth / Kings Point
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Arts are like opinions... though many may agree, none can really be proven. What one person finds beautiful another may find bland.
Sciences work like facts. There are wrongs and there are rights. There's nothing left to interpretation. It works or it doesn't. These impress us through ingenuity, and results.
_________________ GMR of King's Point
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TigerHawke
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:38 pm |
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Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:23 pm Posts: 854
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"if it tastes good and looks bad, give it an owl. if it tastes alright but looks amazing, give it a dragon."
Hmmm Connor ....cooking is under Dragon. unless you like the taste of foam, leather ect ;) then you could put it under Owl. j/k Under your descriptions it shouldn't score well anyways.
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Myth Of Reality
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:01 pm |
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Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:29 pm Posts: 166 Location: Fort Worth / Kings Point
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Mmmm... foam and leather... could I get a side of glue?
_________________ GMR of King's Point
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Connor Sleight
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:54 am |
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:48 pm Posts: 269
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What if someone is going for awesome decoration on a plain vanilla cake? No science for decoration, just creativity which would then be art.
And if someone makes a pot of chili which pretty much looks like slop but has an excellent array of flavor due to correctly measured ingredients, it is a science, is it not?
_________________ Squire to Sir Everlast of Buttercup
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Docsi
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:37 pm |
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Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:05 am Posts: 497 Location: Tahlequah, Oklahoma
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Art and Science are BOTH subjective. Each can have elements of both. Does it really matter? Im a blacksmith. This is a science involving metallurgy, heat, kinetics, and many other terms that can be deemed "science" but it also has an artistic flair to it. Something as simple as a nail can have a decorative head on it. The lowliest horseshoe can have an appealing aesthetic to it. So why have the debate over what is what...simply for an awards perspective?
I think the question should be, do we award a particular piece on its quality of construction or its aesthetic appeal? Like Connor's pot of chili...it can look like crap (pun intended) and still taste like heaven. Leave it up to the entrants desire. If I want a piece judged on aesthetics, then I say so in my description card. If on the other hand I want it judged by the quality of its construction, then I say so on my description card. Then the judges have more options..."well, the quality of construction of this piece is very well done. The stitches are all straight, there are no bunches..I don't particularly like how it looks...the color of this leather is horrendous, but, that's not what Im judging it on so my opinion about the color is irrelevant." This also makes decisions about whether a particular piece deserves an owl instead of a dragon...judged on construction quality or on aesthetic appeal...
Just my thoughts
_________________ Duke, Squire Docsi HardAnvil aka the Mad Dwarf GMR of Dreadmoor Squire to Sir Logan T. Black Clan Chieftain of the Turtle Clan Ship's Surgeon, HMS "Turtle's Revenge" Gaslight Sky Pirate
"Dwarves and mountains have one thing in common: It takes an almighty hammer and a tremendous amount of persistence to overcome them."
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EniadNorreh
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:58 pm |
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Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:00 pm Posts: 285
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Well said Docsi.
_________________ Squire Eniad Norreh Justicar - Guardsman of Luna Lobos
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Gryndll
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:56 pm |
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Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:36 am Posts: 34
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I agree with Dosci as well. But I don't understand all the discussion about cooking is it an art or science, based on the corpora it is an art.
As far as awards and judging, each entrant is to specify the category for each piece that is being entered. Each entry should be judged according the specified categories criteria.
_________________ Mistress Gryndll ap Gwenth Sheriff Five Banners Member of House Singollo
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Malran
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:59 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:34 pm Posts: 131 Location: Red Storm, Dreadmoor, EH
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The difference between an art and a science.
Well, I see it as coming down to intent. It's like taking a drawing versus a diagram.
The drawing might not be precise in execution. Maybe the perspective is off a bit and the colors used aren't likely to appear in nature but the intent is to create something that someone else will appreciate for it's beauty.
A diagram will be precise in execution, will adhere to specific rules, such as scale, perspective and texture. Consideration for beauty is secondary at best.
The two resulting images might be of the exact same thing and seem to be all but identical to the "untrained eye". A drawing can be very precise and lifelike while a diagram can be a thing of true beauty.
When it comes to what items fall into what category, only the creator can truly say as they are the one's who can tell you in intent of the piece.
_________________ Lord Malran Singollo Duke of Dreadmoor Patriarch, House Singollo Lettusio-Rex, Dreadmoor Fey Jackalope Member of the House of H.O.P.S.
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Connor Sleight
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Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:48 am |
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:48 pm Posts: 269
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I understand now. Judges should take the entire aspect of the entered piece and break it down into pieces. Food as an example.
Taste Aroma Appearance Presentation
Chili with a seasoned aroma and spicy flavor on a cold day in a bread bowl would score higher than a fire hot chili in a styrofoam cup.
The item remains in the category to distinguish what award should be given if it indeed earned.
_________________ Squire to Sir Everlast of Buttercup
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TigerHawke
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Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:23 am |
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Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:23 pm Posts: 854
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