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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:48 am 
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Can you explain the chosen method for determining winner? It looks like only the top score from each major category was counted instead of every item submitted. Is that correct?

You had previously mentioned you would probably use the "Better than average" system. Why did you decide not to?


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:28 am 
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And why were my belly dance and prose pieces scored by only three judges, please?


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:12 am 
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Aylin_Karyn wrote:
Can you explain the chosen method for determining winner?

That's probably the only thing I didn't chart out, so good question. The highest score won.

Aylin_Karyn wrote:
It looks like only the top score from each major category was counted instead of every item submitted. Is that correct?

You, madame, are correct.

Aylin_Karyn wrote:
You had previously mentioned you would probably use the "Better than average" system. Why did you decide not to?

My scoring method for the judges was unorthodox. After much deliberation, I went with what I felt best suited the multiple scores. I included each step so everyone could see exactly where every score came from.

Aylin_Karyn wrote:
And why were my belly dance and prose pieces scored by only three judges, please?

I could only enter what I received. I counted three judges scores per each piece entered, so you were neither penalized or given advantage by this.


Thank you for the questions. I hope my answers were helpful! :)


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Zelodie-Local-Satyr wrote:
Aylin_Karyn wrote:
You had previously mentioned you would probably use the "Better than average" system. Why did you decide not to?

My scoring method for the judges was unorthodox. After much deliberation, I went with what I felt best suited the multiple scores. I included each step so everyone could see exactly where every score came from.


It would have been considerate to publicly announce the system for choosing the winner before deciding to use it in this competition. Not doing so gives the appearance of deciding a method for determining a winner AFTER everything has been scored, which would be unquestionably inappropriate for obvious reasons.

I am disappointed in a system that discounts 40% of an entrants items. I can see the intent may have been to prevent "flooding," but I had thought that's what the 15 item limit was for, and in effect, the system rules out quality items from being counted toward one's total score.

Zelodie-Local-Satyr wrote:
Aylin_Karyn wrote:
And why were my belly dance and prose pieces scored by only three judges, please?

I could only enter what I received. I counted three judges scores per each piece entered, so you were neither penalized or given advantage by this.


It's unfair to all entrants not to have consistent scoring on all items by the same number of judges, and there is no excuse when the items were submitted electronically and can be easily delivered to each judge. By not having a highest and a lowest score to drop, the overall scores on these items are now skewed by the opinions of whatever few judges submitted scores, be they the few judges who would have scored these items higher or lower on average.


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:49 pm 
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I'm not sure how judging everyone by the same math isn't fair, but I apologize for any appearance of favoritism I might have given you.


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:05 pm 
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Well in the immortal words of someone who didn't like having others complain about how he did something...

"if you don't like the way I did it than I suggest you run it yourself next time."


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Nevron wrote:
Well in the immortal words of someone who didn't like having others complain about how he did something...

"if you don't like the way I did it than I suggest you run it yourself next time."


Gladly.

Also: been there, done that.


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:51 pm 
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Zelodie-Local-Satyr wrote:
I'm not sure how judging everyone by the same math isn't fair, but I apologize for any appearance of favoritism I might have given you.


I voiced my concerns in detail. Thank you for choosing to dismiss them out of hand.


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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:36 am 
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So I just read through this http://www.amtgard-eh.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=7411 entire thread again. Zelody alluded to 3 entries per sub-catagory would be counted and that it would be a better than average method of scoring. This was never changed or clarified until after the results were announced. Even then there are quite a few things that affect Aylin unfairly. The N/A's listed in 3 spots throughout Aylin's scores automatically become 0's? She's penalized 30 points because judges didn't fill in a blank (or more appropriately after speaking to one of the judges, he was under the impression you were going to average the sheet and if N/A was put into a blank you would total the sheet and divide by 5 instead of 6)? I bring this one in particular up because Wallflower had one spot where that happened and Rhea had one spot where it happened and Aylin had 3. Yet, you claim it was the same math used for everybody. There are also 7 instances (separate from the not applicable fiasco) where someone simply failed to give a score for one of Aylin's entries. That is over double the missing scores for every person who entered items into the competition (3 for those of you that don't want to look it up), and only one of those people entered enough items to win the title. Was it unfair that out of 10 spots where an item should have been judged and wasn't Aylin had 7 of those? But you say it's ok... we used the same math. Of those 10 times 6 of them (4 times affecting Aylin, that's 2/3rds, or 66.667% for those of you who doubt my math skills) were from Judge #7. I only bring this up because the only times in the competition where Judge #7's score was dropped for being the lowest is when Judge #7 didn't turn in a score. Seriously... you don't see how this negatively affects her?

So let's get down to the real number crunching game. If we had gone with better than average system (subtracting 7 instead of 3.5 because we're using a 10 point scale instead of a 5 point scale), and allowing 3 items per sub-category (as was the most current information on the forums at the time the competition started) then Aylin would have won. If you had used only one score per category or even 2 per category then Wallflower would have won and Aylin would have been second. If you go for total score (up to 3 items per category) Aylin wins. If you go with Highest average score (one item per category) Wallflower wins, Dair second, Aylin 3rd. Average score (2 items or more per Category), Dair wins, Wallflower second, Aylin 3rd. Although, Wallflower and Aylin have been asking plenty of questions to find out how the winner would be calculated and would have only entered their 5 best items if they had been told it was going to be highest average. Look at the link above Aylin and Wallflower were the people most active in that thread that entered.

I'm not saying that Zelody has to re-figure the scores. I'm just a park PM. She's the Regent and she's in charge of Dragon Master. But don't look at one of my populous members (one who was kingdom regent before the current regent even heard of this game), and act like she's just being a cry baby. She was treated unfairly. There's a lot of fishy stuff in those numbers when you stop to look at them. The method for determining the winner that was told to/ discussed with the contestants the day of the competition is not the one that was used? Not only was Aylin treated unfairly but so were Wallflower and Dair. Neither of them want to get a win due to clerical or mathematical errors.

And when you get ready for the same snide comments you guys made to Aylin, I've been there and done that too.

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 Post subject: Discussion of DM
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:07 am 
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To avoid having to scroll past those large pics to have a discussion, I started a new thread.

I wanted to continue a discussion that started about DM. I have a couple of questions for the Regent.

1.) It says Minimum of 5 entries in 5 categories, and a Maximum of 15 entries in 10 categories with no more than 3 entries per sub-category. But some are saying that only the top entry per category counted. Can you elaborate?

2.) There are some scores missing from some judges (i.e. they scored a piece in some areas, but left one area blank) or they simply did not score a piece at all. Is there a reasom they did not score the item? And why did their failure to score result in the contestant getting a 0 from that judge and then having to have that score used as the "lowest, throw out" score?

Can we get the names of the judges as the correlate with the judging numbers? (i.e. who was judge 1, judge 2, etc.)

Thanks for your time.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:54 pm 
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I have a couple of questions. Did any serpent knights or masters enter this DM and who were the judges?

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Aaaaaah, I was wondering how I was commenting in a whole new thread. It was hard keeping up with the conversation AND having retarded questions run through my head, like "What, why don't I remember this thread?" That's what happens when you sleep.

I wasn't trying to dismiss anyone's concerns. I actually just thought I answered the questions to the best of my ability.

So, since this is an issue of mounting concern, I will investigate into it further. No one is infallible, myself included.

Thank you for pointing out this possible error.


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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:41 pm 
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Zelodie-Local-Satyr wrote:
Aylin_Karyn wrote:
Has scoring been decided upon? Will it be the usual "better than average" system where you subtract 3.5 from the average score of each item and add the remainders?


More than likely scoring will be the same. I'm doing more research into it before it's posted. I just don't want to misspeak on the matter.


So basically on the subject of number of categories there is very clear and valid point. As far as scoring method it was never finalized. Can one be upset that BTA wasn't used? Not wholly. While it has been the status quo in the past, the Regent does have the freedom to run events in new and different fashions. Can there be displeasure at the fact that it was never fully clarified or finalized? Sure. I can understand the frustration of trying to enter and perform well in a tourney without clear parameters for scoring as a guide for your individual strategy.

Forest, while I think your first two questions are fair enough, I do feel providing the judges names and therefore scores and comments is inappropriate. Even if after the fact, this completely invalidates the concept of anonymity that historically is valued in this kingdom and game.

Crimson, no serpents or masters entered, but serpents did judge.

It's a shame this has turned into somewhat of a circus as the artists are talented and worked hard, while the Regent despite lack of experience running one of these shindigs also put effort into trying to run a fun and thorough event using publications of Amtgard as a guide.

Omitting the request to reveal the judges I concur with Forest's list of valid concerns

On #1. From the DM categories thread: ""MIN: 5 in 5 Main Categories MAX: 15 in 10 Main Categories and 3 in each Sub-Category"" ... ... That seems pretty clear. I can understand a desire to adhere to this.

On #2. Missing scores. I'd probably be pretty darned upset in that situation as well. Not really sure how this occurred. Now rather than pointing fingers and going back and forth perhaps we can focus on a way to resolve this particular issue. I've already messaged Zelodie to see if she has all the corresponding paperwork. However, if for some reason we are unable to locate said scores, what are some other possible ways of proceeding? Would we all be happy with dropping high and low scores as was the system and simply averaging with a lower number of judges?

I like people on all sides of this issue. I'm really good with numbers. And I'd like to do whatever I can to help us come to a resolution we all can be pleased with.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:51 pm 
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Until we do reach a resolution, I do have detailed records of all scoring and, minus, giving the names of each judge as they score, they are a matter of public record. In fact, if anyone wishes, I can scan and upload each.


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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:41 pm 
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Let me clarify. We know who judged. And anonominity is only valid unti lthe event is over. Everyone now knows who enetered each item. So the idea of keeping things anonomys ends wit hthe event.

That said, why would it be a bad thing to know which judge matched up with the judging number?

I see it as not only letting people see how a given individuals looks at things, but a way to track (over time) the style of judging from each person. Data is our most valuable asset and we often throw it away. We have not kept good records of our A&S tournaments in years.

Can I ask what the problem would be with knowing which judge gave which scores?

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