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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Deydron wrote:
Draeven wrote:
I'm sure we can alot some time at MR for this (but I'll leave the final word to Docsi), and even if we can't I'm sure we can setup another workshop at the park level shortly after MR.


If this happens at either MR, or a Park Day, can someone record it and put the footage up on either youtube or make it to where it would be accessible to people that are unable to attend MR or other Texas events this month? That would be awesome and much apprecitated. [smilie=icon_cheesygrin.gif]


I was just thinking this. I'd be happy to film if it's a park day.


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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:09 pm 
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The one judging workshop we had at park had a very low attendance... 2 people attended that weren't part of the running of it... the two that attended found it very helpful and learned a lot... i'd love to see one happen at MR or have another one at park level (or both). Only having judged 2 quals i don't feel qualified enough to be the one presenting the info, but if anyone that has judged regularly would be interested in doing one at Eagleshire let me know and we can co-ordinate when and i'll do my best to get more then 2 people to show up, or if someone wants to run one somewhere else let me know when/where and i'll try to get people from my park transportation to you.

@Cynisca Sorry i should have quoted her two part question as two quotes to be more clear. I understand the wanting to know the history of the judges, was it a bunch of people thrown in the deep end or people who understand how we tend to judge things and the scores are on par for how things have been judged in the past...
The question of who entered still bothers me... and i'm still hoping Crimson will clarify what she meant. I can kind of understand that reaction with weapon master, if you're fighting a bunch of newbies because that's all that entered someone who is a mediocre fighter could win quite handily and not necessarily be comparable to other weapon master winners, but with DM we have a standard system. So the scores are comparable. The impression i was left with from her question is that who ever wins this one, their title shouldn't be taken seriously cause no one 'of value' bothered entering... Which i'd like to think isn't what she meant, but it left me really wanting clarification.


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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:56 pm 
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I'd certainly attend a How to Judge class. I've talked to those that have judged...sat with a judge as they checked each item ...and read the scores and comments after a Quals. I've judged a few times and still don't feel that I have a great grasp on the 'job'.

I never got the promised comments when I entered a DM. I did get to speak to a couple of judges afterwards ..so that was good. When the judge(s) had a question on an item ...a person was there to relay the question to the entrant.

I am beginning to see and feel, that we are judging Kingdom Quals and some park Quals harder or just as hard as DM. They are not the same standard. Yet a judging class would help cover a lot of points for a lot of us.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:00 am 
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TigerHawke wrote:
I am beginning to see and feel, that we are judging Kingdom Quals and some park Quals harder or just as hard as DM. They are not the same standard. Yet a judging class would help cover a lot of points for a lot of us.


DM and Kingdom Quals should be judged at the same level. Both are Kingdom level events and can earn awards up to 10th. The only difference i see in the two isthat in DM, a truly average entry will get close to a 2.5, where in CQ it often gets closer to a 3.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:45 am 
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Forest Evergreen wrote:
DM and Kingdom Quals should be judged at the same level. Both are Kingdom level events and can earn awards up to 10th. The only difference i see in the two is that in DM, a truly average entry will get close to a 2.5, where in KQ it often gets closer to a 3.


Yes they are both kingdom events. Yes items in both can be awarded 10th level. But that's about where the similarities end to me.

With Dragon Master, a person can choose how many entries they wish to submit.
With kingdom quals a person is REQUIRED to enter a minimum of 10. If someone wants to be king, but cant draw or sew a straight line, or manages to burn water, why should he be penalized for his lack of skill.

Any crown qual entries (in my opinion when I've entered or judged) are not necessarily about the particular talent or skill of the person, but rather getting the required # entered and scoring at least a 3 overall. Thought and time should be put into the entry, but it doesn't have to be "perfect" or look like it's professionally made.

And the averages are different. With quals, a person needs a 3, which is considered average. Sometimes it's just a pass/fail depending on if a position is contested and the park.
With DM, "average" is a 2.5 or 3, with a better than average score being 3.5.

And the biggest difference is that DM is the talent show of the A&S'ers. Someone is not going to enter a tunic that was thrown together in 10 minutes (where they might in quals if it looks half-decent). The contestants have spent weeks or months on a piece, and this is after years of practice on other pieces.


...Or did I miss something again?

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:40 am 
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Items should be judged equally harshly at any kingdom level tourney, and one should expect to see more 3.5-5 items in a DM and more 2.5-3.5 items at a CQ. A CQ overall winner might have a 3.0 average score while a DM overall winner would have a 3.5 average score.

Using the same scoring system is key and should help the judging remain equal across both competitions that qualify for the same awards instead of allowing judges to arbitrarily be harsher on better items that have more effort put into them.

Expecting a higher average quality of items is insufficient reason to score them badly. DM is still an opportunity to enter just a few items for feedback, too, and should not discourage artisans by giving them a lower score than deserved.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:00 am 
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Back to the original topic, if it hasn't been possible to get in touch with the judge with the most missing scores for the electronic submissions, would it be possible to ask one of the Oklahoma judges to step up and fill in?


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:36 pm 
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I haven't responded to any of this yet, mostly because I have been ill since the weekend of DM. I first want to thank Zelodie for making this competition interesting *grin* and it was a fun DM for me! Secondly, I think that the idea of entrants going before the judges with their pieces is an excellent one! As most know, especially if an artist has done more than a few competitions or, like Forest pointed out, with bardic, dancing and other performance pieces, anonymity is not really present, as much as it is tried for (at least as far as which piece was done by which artist goes) This also seems to be a better method as questions can come directly from the entrants and a lot of time I know judges simply don't ask the question because it's too much trouble to get someone over to go and ask the entrants and then come back with the answer. Also this would help in the cases where a judge thinks something is wrong with the piece when in fact the piece is supposed to be that way for one reason or another (for example something in 3D art being judged poorly because it has no real use due to size when in reality, it's just an art piece and isn't supposed to have a function other than looking good) I would love to have a competition of this type even just as a 'trial' to see how it goes!
I also would like to have some judging workshops done! We have tried to get something like that going in Oklahoma because there aren't a lot of people up here who have a lot of experience judging so the pool to choose from is relatively small. A lot of people in our area don't want to judge because they don't feel they would do a good job because of a lack of experience/knowledge of how to judge. To me , that would be one of the biggest benefits of teaching people to judge, a larger group of people to choose from so it isn't the same few people always judging competitions. However when I have brought this up before I got a lot of flack from some about 'trying to make everyone judge the same' or 'telling people how to judge' instead of letting them do it their own way. To me, I feel like the more people understand the basics of judging, the better the competitions will be. Just my opinion though.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:37 pm 
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since we still have people following this thread and we're talking about competitions in general, i'd like to know what people think about an idea i've been pondering.
How would you feel about doing bardic in front of an audience? those attending need to understand that if they're choosing to sit there they are expected to act accordingly, no talking during the performance, cheer if you think it's great, clap politely if you think it's alright... have the judges in the audience and they can take notes and talk to the contestants after everyone has performed, anyone who wants to stick around for the critique/ constructive criticism is welcome to, but those who just wanted to see the performances can get up and leave. That way you're not performing to 5 often blank faces, you can feed off the energy of the crowd, those who want to see what people are entering don't feel like they are intruding when they want to come watch, ect.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:41 pm 
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I'm always up for performing in front of a crowd. :)

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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:17 am 
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When I was Regent, I oriented the judges to the scoring system. In the absence of regular judging workshops, it's the next best thing. My preference, both as an event coordinator as an entrant, is for the categories to be judged with each judge getting their own first impression, then discussing the entries together so that technical aspects can be expounded upon by those more expert in the category, and then each judge choosing their own score and writing down feedback comments.

I could see the value of an Amtgard Idol style competition, at least as an experiment.


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:11 pm 
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There has been a DM where Bardic was done at an actual event Bardic. It was DM VII run by Forest. It was spread over the entire length of the reign and each category was held on a different day. One weekend Garb. Another Cooking. Bardic at Midreign. It is also incidentally my DM win void of X's. If I recall to the best of my knowledge the two Olympiads I entered also had an audience for the Bardic category. .....

...... I have an entirely different idea for an experiment. Information pending. I think it will be fun and interesting. ... *tease*

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:13 pm 
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I'm going to say something of my own free will.

I was Judge Six.

I apologize for the oversight, Aylin. I don't know why my scores did not get to Zelodie. Perhaps they went to a spam box. I'll resend them via email and also PM via the forum.

I apologize to all concerned at how long it took me to comment.

Thank you.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:56 pm 
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Thanks Rayel. I appreciate your honesty.

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