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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:54 am 
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DameNightengael wrote:
On #1. From the DM categories thread: ""MIN: 5 in 5 Main Categories MAX: 15 in 10 Main Categories and 3 in each Sub-Category"" ... ... That seems pretty clear. I can understand a desire to adhere to this.

On #2. Missing scores. I'd probably be pretty darned upset in that situation as well. Not really sure how this occurred. Now rather than pointing fingers and going back and forth perhaps we can focus on a way to resolve this particular issue. I've already messaged Zelodie to see if she has all the corresponding paperwork. However, if for some reason we are unable to locate said scores, what are some other possible ways of proceeding? Would we all be happy with dropping high and low scores as was the system and simply averaging with a lower number of judges?

I like people on all sides of this issue. I'm really good with numbers. And I'd like to do whatever I can to help us come to a resolution we all can be pleased with.


On point #1, I agree... it was implied that they would be taken into account.

On point #2, I also agree... if we can't find those extra scores, drop High and Low from the scores that were given then average the remaining scores. Unfortunately for Aylin this means that 2 of her items only have a single score, but it is much more fair than counting the missing scores any other way.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:55 am 
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CrimsonWitch wrote:
I have a couple of questions. Did any serpent knights or masters enter this DM and who were the judges?


I'm curious what serpent knights or masters entering the competition matters, The items are judged with the same expectations (because they don't know who entered what items) by judges who are respected.

As for Aylin's frustrations, they're justified. She had more scores missing then everyone else combined. And she's right missing data skews the data, there's no way of ever knowing if it would have been positive or negative. I see no problem with dropping high/low and just leaving less scores to be averaged, but it doesn't really affect me...

Zelodie tried something new and different which is her right as regent. The system that she used is very similar to one being adopted in several kingdoms and has been passed around the facebook A&S community. Going into the competition we expected the better then average system because that's the last we had heard that she was thinking of doing, but it was never finalized. Since she went with the average of all scores i'm glad she only took the high out of each category as the two items it dropped for me i wouldn't have entered because i didn't feel that they were as high quality as my other items, but i thought they were good and might score well enough to gain a few more points with the better then avg. scoring. I have talked with her and I'm more then happy to have the scores looked at again and go with the better then avg. scoring system.
I'd also like to add, i appreciate all the time and effort she put in to typing up the feedback from the judges and i appreciate the judges for giving it.

That's just my 2 cents on the matter...


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:20 am 
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.... Revealing which judges were whom just opens a whole can of worms.

A few examples which do not indicate any particular parties:

Aspiring Serpent Knight finds from said information that Judge #4 doesn't score their work as well as others. They pretty much avoid any event where they find Judge #4 may be on the other side of the table.

Judge #7 receives backlash for their comments and/or scores. They are therefore discouraged from volunteering to do so in the future.

Entrant #3 finds that Judge #6 scores their work lower than other judges. They are not particularly friends. Entrant #3 accuses Judge #6 of purposely botching their chances.

....... Etc ad infinitum.

I personally don't believe that the value of anonymity ceases once the scores are entered.

..... But those are just my pennies. Rub em together and try to make dollars. Let me know if you have any luck with that.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:00 am 
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In the instances of a single missing score for a single item trait (such as "N/A"), would it not make sense to average the other five trait scores and multiply by 6 to find that judge's overall opinion of the piece, instead of dropping that whole judge's score?

In the instances of unscored items that were submitted electronically (drum solo performance on YouTube and written entries emailed): contact the judges; get the scores. Period.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:24 am 
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DameNightengael wrote:
.... Revealing which judges were whom just opens a whole can of worms.

A few examples which do not indicate any particular parties:

Aspiring Serpent Knight finds from said information that Judge #4 doesn't score their work as well as others. They pretty much avoid any event where they find Judge #4 may be on the other side of the table.

Judge #7 receives backlash for their comments and/or scores. They are therefore discouraged from volunteering to do so in the future.

Entrant #3 finds that Judge #6 scores their work lower than other judges. They are not particularly friends. Entrant #3 accuses Judge #6 of purposely botching their chances.

....... Etc ad infinitum.

I personally don't believe that the value of anonymity ceases once the scores are entered.

..... But those are just my pennies. Rub em together and try to make dollars. Let me know if you have any luck with that.

All of your assumptions are that people will be mad at judges for...well...judging. If that is the case, then people should stop entering competitions where their work will be judged.

On the other hand, if I got comments for a judge, or there was a large disparity between how Judge #2 and Judge #5 scored an item, how do I ask them about it? If someone gave feedback that I did not understand, how do I ask for clarification?

If a judge gives great feedback and did a good job, how dose a future Regent know to seek that person out for judging?

We know who judged. What we don't know is HOW they judged. Why should anyone be afraid to say how they scored an item? Does this mean I can start reevign from behind a screen so no one knows if it was me or the other reeve who made a call? (Seems kinda silly huh?)

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:25 pm 
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"If someone gave feedback that I did not understand, how do I ask for clarification?"

I did ask. I have approached a judge in relation to him quoting a rule that I cannot find anywhere just to ask "is this an opinion?" "am I missing where it states this?"

His response to me? "Okay"

That was it. I tried opening up a line of communication in a very clear way and was totally blown off. Forest, your question is one that I've struggled with since taking the papers home with me. Is it in my right to even question? I brought this up on the FB page of the A&S Judging group because I felt it would be where I'd get the opinions of people who are not involved and therefore speaking on possibly preconceived notions of parties involved. It just seemed the most neutral place to go.

And, I tried their suggestions. What else can I do in addition to recalculating the overall scores? I will resend out the written entries. I was just afraid that this late in the game it would only cause more drama than not.

I will even have someone look over the sheets and make sure that perhaps I didn't misread something. I am willing to right any wrong I may have made. But, if the name of the judge is revealed, it will have to be the judge revealing it and not I.

Please keep the feedback coming. If there's some stone I left un-turned or step I may have missed, I want to be the first to know.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:27 pm 
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@ Forest and Nightengael, i see both your sides, and in ideal world Forest you're right, we wouldn't need anonymity on either side of the table, entrants would trust that the judges leave they're personal feelings about them positive or negative "at the door" and judges would be ok with everyone knowing how they felt about each item. When an entrant got feed back they could ask about it and neither side would feel slighted we could honestly use it as a chance to grow. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world and i've always been under the impression that there has been quite a lot of accusations and hurt feelings coming from comments/scores that the contestant or those around them didn't agree with. I thought that's why we have the system we have now.

It would be great to have the statistical data to compare judges, to compare competitions. And that way we could ensure that we're calling on objective judges that will provide excellent feed back. On the other hand that data could be used (or people could accuse you of using it) to cherry-pick judges that will be nicer to your friends style of crafting. Someone could be afraid of giving something too high or low of a score because they'll be afraid that it'll be seen as bias for or against the contestant and the back lash that might come from that.

I've never had a competition where i've been told who scored what how, i just get the over all score of my item, sometimes with comments.

As far as the reeving, i'm guessing a lot of these same arguments could be applied there and your reeves with out sack kinda are hiding behind a screen, there's just nothing physical there...

And if i'm misunderstanding our history, please correct me.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Can there be hrd feelings? Sure. People gripe at reeves all the time. But they don't stop fighting over it. The reeves don't quit making calls over it.

The "anonymous" part of A&S is, at best, only partially real. I can't sing, dance, or act anonymously. Often, people hear about or see items prior to the event, or see a person bringing in the court dress to enter.

Personally, I feel the anonymous part of judging is bad for the competition. It prevents discussion with the entrants. Look at how IM does the Best of the Best at Rakis. Each entrant brings the piece up, signs it in, then stands before the panel to get feedback and answer questions. No one pulls punches or candy coats their feedback, and the people entering do not feel mistreadted, because they asked to be judged.

If a judge is scared to score an item honestly, they should not judge. If an entrant is scared to get a bad score, they shouldn't enter. But we need to move past the idea that judges can't be fair. We need to move past the idea that entrants can't take criticism. We need to be adults and look each other in the eye and accept that someone is judging, and someone is being judged, and both agreed to be in that position of their own free will.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:55 pm 
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I would suggest that if both Aylin and Wallflower are agreeable; I know Dair is; we hold off awarding the title of Dragonmaster till endreign so that Zelodie has more time to figure out what to do with this.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Forest Evergreen wrote:
Personally, I feel the anonymous part of judging is bad for the competition. It prevents discussion with the entrants. Look at how IM does the Best of the Best at Rakis. Each entrant brings the piece up, signs it in, then stands before the panel to get feedback and answer questions. No one pulls punches or candy coats their feedback, and the people entering do not feel mistreated, because they asked to be judged.


I'd love to see a competition like that done here!

Forest Evergreen wrote:
If a judge is scared to score an item honestly, they should not judge. If an entrant is scared to get a bad score, they shouldn't enter. But we need to move past the idea that judges can't be fair. We need to move past the idea that entrants can't take criticism. We need to be adults and look each other in the eye and accept that someone is judging, and someone is being judged, and both agreed to be in that position of their own free will.


I agree. I understand Zelodie not telling us who was which judge because the norm and implication of following that norm was judges names are not related to their scores, but in the future i'd be happy to follow that system. People generally don't and really shouldn't enter things into competition that they're not proud to call their own, or at least be adult enough to say this is my first shot or i'm still kinda new to this, how did i do and how do i improve?

(I was just under the impression that it was one of the changes that had been made out of necessity, too much trouble in the past and trouble getting people to judge because of it.)

btw, if you haven't read the thread that she started on the A&S anonymous facebook page you should check it out.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Docsi wrote:
I would suggest that if both Aylin and Wallflower are agreeable; I know Dair is; we hold off awarding the title of Dragonmaster till endreign so that Zelodie has more time to figure out what to do with this.


Works for me. Not attending midreign, so I hadn't considered that she might be trying to crunch for it.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:07 pm 
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wallflower wrote:
Forest Evergreen wrote:
Personally, I feel the anonymous part of judging is bad for the competition. It prevents discussion with the entrants. Look at how IM does the Best of the Best at Rakis. Each entrant brings the piece up, signs it in, then stands before the panel to get feedback and answer questions. No one pulls punches or candy coats their feedback, and the people entering do not feel mistreated, because they asked to be judged.


I'd love to see a competition like that done here!


Me too. That sounds like a freakin' awesome event. I didn't know they did that.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:09 pm 
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Docsi wrote:
I would suggest that if both Aylin and Wallflower are agreeable; I know Dair is; we hold off awarding the title of Dragonmaster till endreign so that Zelodie has more time to figure out what to do with this.


That's fine by me.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:32 pm 
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ok, then we'll take those awards off the agenda for midreign and push them back to endreign. Give Zelly more time to get this all squared away.

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aka the Mad Dwarf
GMR of Dreadmoor
Squire to Sir Logan T. Black
Clan Chieftain of the Turtle Clan
Ship's Surgeon, HMS "Turtle's Revenge"
Gaslight Sky Pirate

"Dwarves and mountains have one thing in common: It takes an almighty hammer and a tremendous amount of persistence to overcome them."


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:04 pm 
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Docsi wrote:
ok, then we'll take those awards off the agenda for midreign and push them back to endreign. Give Zelly more time to get this all squared away.


Time and resources permitting, may I suggest WBW as an alternate deadline? By the time Endreign rolls around, the excitement for Dragonmaster will have long since been eclipsed by Olympiad. And with a possible joint event, the EH may not even have a decent opportunity to recognize DM participants in court. Better to get it all squared away, in either case, before Crown Quals rolls around with a new batch of folk aspiring and earning awards and recognition for their items.


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