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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:29 pm 
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Looking at the classes I would agree that scout has the upperhand in direct combat. (more powerful bow availible, special arrow, 1 more point of armor, 1 heal, 1 antidote, Immune to assassin traps, and attuned).

But in overall game play, the assassin can poison an unlimited number of people with the same weapon. And can assassinate 2 people (or 4) per game (i.e. sever spirit).

I won't argue that the assassin is a better head to head fighting class than others, but they do play a key role on the field. It isn't if they are as good or better head to head with each class, but how they balance the game. Adding an extra TOD or javilines was not going to help make the class any better.

I have stated previously that I agree that they need an ability to boost their overall power (though not too much), and I think that allowing for an ability choice at 1st level, along with adding a new ability would make the class more solid.

On a side note what is incorrect about my barbarian statement? I assume you mean that the barbarian could choose not to go berserk on those lives? Which, if that is what you were saying, is true, but rarely ever do barbarians opt out. In fact most of them will try to get killed quickly to get to those last 2 lives.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:50 pm 
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Well so far it seems mostly everyone thinks that assassins need just something. So instead of pressing the head to head comparisons we need to think of something feasible to propose that might be accepted. I personally dont have any ideas but I think I can provide a starting point of inspiration.

I had previously played HFS and learned the assassins differences to Amtgard.

Firstly, their response to TOD is an ability called deathstrike which acts as a single use of enchant weapon to kill on a limb shot, this way they essentially have TOD but no possibly dangerous and innefective physical contact.

Secondly, they have an ability called backstab that cuases a blow to the back of the torso followed by "backstab" will penetrate any and all armour completely and kill the victim

Now I am not suggesting that we adopt these abilities, I am just trying to spark some inspiration to think of an alternate improvement to the choice of weapons and abilities that has failed to pass.

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[align=center]"When the Persian archers fire, their many arrows blot out the sun!"

- Native of Trachis prior to Battle of Thermopylae

"Good. Then we shall fight in the shade."

-Dionykes, Spartan hoplite[/align]


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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:00 pm 
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Forest Evergreen";p="2112 wrote:
Adding an extra TOD or javilines was not going to help make the class any better.

This I definitely agree with.

Quote:
I have stated previously that I agree that they need an ability to boost their overall power (though not too much), and I think that allowing for an ability choice at 1st level, along with adding a new ability would make the class more solid.

Then we're substantially in agreement. I don't think they're that underpowered, I'm just disappointed that the abilities that really make them stand out as a unique class (Poison Weapon and Assassinate) are very much niche abilities that are only useful in certain circumstances, and then of course there's Teleport which is powerful but in practice just doesn't look that Assassin-y when it's a dude strolling leisurely across the field hoping that you'll blow a spell on him before he tells you he's Teleporting. I guess the plus side is we have two years to figure out what the answer is, because I'm stuck.

Quote:
On a side note what is incorrect about my barbarian statement? I assume you mean that the barbarian could choose not to go berserk on those lives?

Exactly. If you're trying to mimic an Assassin's abilities by playing Barbarian, there's no reason to go Berserk. If an Assassin takes two points of armor, a bow, throwing weapons, and a small shield (plus Teleport), the difference between him and a Barbarian who never goes Berserk is that the Barbarian gets to use a larger shield and has two extra lives, and the Assassin can wear enchantments.


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 Post Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:47 pm 
 

Alright then, let me chime in since I have read my name on a couple of accounts.
First of all, the main reasons I have heard that the Assassins did not get another Touch of Death was due to a) the class is already "balanced" and b) the actual physical contact.
Several players across the different forums feel that Assassins are NOT balanced and that Scout is a more powerful class to play.
Kodiak stacked Sins against a few other classes and they came up short.
Forest seems to think Sins can carry and use a small shield AND a short bow. Though this is allowed, it is highly impractical since Sins nor any other class can wear their shields on their backs. ?Ever try to hold a shield and use a bow? It doesn't really work too well.
All in all "Assassinate" is really not very functional if the Sin wants to stay unobserved. Yelling anything in a battle kinda goes against our nature.
Trap, is a good example for those Sins from the old school. Its really hard to cast a verbal when your trying to be sneaky. Also, since the victim can now move all but their legs, it hardly represents a true trap, that is suppose to incapacitate.
ToD was suppose to be a "stealth" attack which made Sins unique. When 7.0 came out we lost all but one. Yet Anti-paladins, who are mostly Warriors with special abilities from their Evil Natures are still allowed 4. This along with Healers having the opportunity to use 4 as well, makes the "physical contact" argument null and void. How can it be Okay for one class and not another.
Now, I don't remember a Vote at any Althing to reflect the "populace" opinion on the proposals. What I saw was one week prior to Clan, the Queen made a attempt to pass out the sheet with ALL the Kingdoms proposals and asked for feed back.
After Months of working with the Rules Rep, the Assassins had been the major class trying to make a change and yet received little or, some would say "nothing" in return.
In reading across the boards, though I am indeed a "little FISH", I find this is a common complaint.
If you ask me "why didn't you attend the meeting"?
I would say that last year I did in fact attend and was accused of "filibustering". I did not want to stand against that charge again.
I let those who were suppose to represent the "players" vote how we had described. I thought I had done the right thing... I was Wrong!
I was told that Kurse, not Brennon would chair the meeting. After all Brennon claimed he was done with the rules changes.
When I asked Kurse why Brennon had done so this year, he told me that Brennon had "asked" if he could and Kurse agreed.

So, perhaps things went askew... I do not know.

I do know that the Major consensus from many is that Assassin is considered an underpowered class.
The question remains... What can be put in place to achieve a "balance"?
Or rather, what will we be allowed to do to try and achieve a "balance"?

Several suggestions have been made, including more verbals (don't like that), more distance attacks (didn't get javelins, guess that's out), and different killing attacks from HFS.

From all of these... please tell me just what you folks who fight to keep the "physical contact" out of our class will allow. I see this as an issue which goes beyond gameplay.
Remove ALL Touch effect attacks, or its simply NOT fare.

I say, perhaps going with that "Back Stab" which goes through Armor and perhaps an Arrow which does the same. This would allow Assassins to once again become a feared Class in the "Stick Jock" World of the current Amtgard.
Would this be something that the "Monarchs" could agree on, because the Reps work seemed to have been ignored when it came to a Vote.

Or should I start collecting signatures on a petition again, and be accused of Cheating, Lying and Stealing...just to get my way.

You see, I only want to "follow the rules" and make a difference, not be made out to be some kind of "criminal".

Let's try and work "together" and make this an equitable situation.

Delphos Darkheart 8)
Guildmaster Emerald Hills Assassins


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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:27 am 
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In Sutra's defense...

A: Removing TOD is useless. Once its gone someone will start whining about that fact that we're hitting each other too...go figure.

And the next person that tells me I dont gank enough with TOD gets it every chance I can until their spitting mad at me. Yeah...the monk uses them too.

B: Why/How the hell did this TOD issue even get brought up with the CoM? What transpired where that is now impacting the entire game to such a degree that TOD is even being considered for removal? Please be specific and if the answer is just a guess I dont want to hear it.

Now to argue with the Assassins here...
C: 80% of the times I've died in battlegames in the past five months has been from the damn assassins. I dont want to hear how nerfed they are anymore. They arent. I empathize about the STUPID throwing weapon diameter, but come on.

D: Dont compare them to druids, or any other magic user for that matter...magic users may only enter a battlegame at 10:1 ratios, which is almost a restrictive in play as someone playing a Dragon. Too many people try to compare melee to magic on even ratios and the system was NEVER designed for them to be evenly matched.

E: Comparison with other MELEE classes, we find that it is all just little trades out for a very broad scope of choices. Armor, Archery, Poison, Shield and a teleport (which by the way is the most abused ability in the game hands down)...and then dont forget poison. The javelin would have done little more than allowed you to try for a rules revision later of something like "Any wweapon but a polearm/staff/spear" or something just as silly.


Now for Delphos specifically...

WTF does Brennon have to do with the Assassins not getting their votes?!
BRENNON COULDNT EVEN VOTE MAN!!!!!

The next thing your going to say is Tolken is misrepresenting you. Tolken is probably your best bet at getting the changes you want, so I dont suggest walking that path.

If you have a better system, please enlighten us. I understand quite well how frustrated you are with this issue (considering I've heard you threaten quitting the game at least four times over it), but the bottom line is that EH is only one Kingdom, and while we may have a pull a lot of weight, that weight isnt going to always work in our favor.

Now I was already going to offer an online polling solution for the rules proposals as they are made ready for publication, if this appeases your wont for a more accurate representation of what our populace feel necessary then let me do it and lay off the guys that have paved the way for a smooth system of updating,changing,clarifying, and unifying the rulebook. If you do not feel an online polling solution would make this boat float and sail then please bring something else up so I can try to help (provided its feasible and reasonable).

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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:17 am 
 
Sirrakhis

Don't put words in my mouth, or in my post that were not, and are not there.
I have said, nor written ANYTHING about anyone causing Assassins NOT to get their vote.
So don't start that shit with me!

I am only relaying what I have read and heard from other players across the boards, from here and other Kingdoms.

If your getting killed by Assassins, that doesn't really make them a strong class. It just makes YOU a weak player.

Try blocking that arrow in your chest next time.

I think Tolken did a DAMN good job at working with those who tried to get changes made, but in the End the Monarchs did not vote in the same manner.
Its not all about me and I'm not trying to make it so.
And for a correction, I haven't "threatened to quit" since banner wars and that was out of pure frustration with the Throwing Daggers of EVERY Kingdom being declared illegal, cause the rule was never really play tested.

If you want to get all up in it... you can go it alone.

I'm offering other solutions, or didn't you even read my post JA!!!

I'll spend the next two years playing Assassin and working on Building the Guild across the Kingdoms... Perhaps you'll bring in some more newbees who will come over to the Dark Side. Thanks for the recruits!!!

Delphos 8)


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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:32 am 
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First off, many of you are aware of Finders Keep recent growth I am sure. We have gained a wizard, a druid, an archer, and several sins. This class may be underpowered but it is still a big draw especially for younger players. There loss is not that they have lost power in their abilities but they have lost stealth. I knew very few assassins during my short time of playing 6.0 in fact all but one of the assassins at Finders Keep did not seriously start playing th class until after 7.0. Before I start rambling let me get to my point. I would like to propose that we choose a park and play test some ideas out for the 2008 rules change vote. I do not play assassin but I would like to see the Back Stab ability tried with just a melee weapon, with just arrows, or with arrows or a melee weapon. Give them this ability to them the number of time they asked for ToD and remove ToD as an option the days you are playtesting this effect. And/or let them Imbue their weapons once per game this would give the a wounds kill weapon for one life. Neither of these seem to far and still retain some ammount of learned skill to use. The first you actually have to get behind someone. The second you still have to hit me.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:12 am 
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Well I didn't mean to have those ideas accepted directly so I guess I should Elaborate.

I am not fighting TOD as a touch ability, I am fighting it as an innefective ability for an assassin on the battlefield. I think TOD should stay but I still think the assassin needs tweaking. I know that there are many people who play assassin and play it well, A great player should be able to play most classes effectively. But it seems that people who see asssassins versatility of choice are fooled by it. Because once you narrow it down to your choices then you have only 3 or 4 abilities in total that several classes have as class traits.

Example of completed choices of my personal preference, as an assassins purpose is to kill effectively I have chosen what seems best

Weapons: dagger, short, long, throwing weapons
1st level nothing
2nd level (poison weapon 2/game)
3rd level (touch of death 1/game)
4th level 2pts of armor
5th level (small shield)or(buy down for short bow)
6th level (poison weapon 1/life)

Now if I compare this list to other classes It always seems to fall short as my only really useful ability is poison weapon because I only get 1 TOD per game unless I buy down, but then I lose either my shield or poison per life or both. Even then I have to manage to touch an unarmored body that wants to kill me without dying in the process.

Poison weapon by a large margin is the most effective ability of the assassin but there are still 2 classes that are immune, 3 classes that can cure others if they pay, one that can cure without buying it, anyone with armor can ignore it, and I rarely see anyone die because of the poison because they continue fighting with nothing to lose and are killed by the sword only after possibly killing my teammates. but you still have to sacrifice other abilities to get it.

So in essence I only have one effective ability and have to buy the shield or bow which are just natural class features for most. Whereas other classes get 1,2 or even 3 abilities at a level and have a shield or bow as a natural ability.

natural no cost for Shields: Anti paladin, Archer, Barbarian, Paladin, Scout, and warrior.

shields with a price: Assassin, Bard, Druid, and Healer (see the problem?)

I do not play assassin so I can only see whats on paper and my experience of having teammates or enemies play one. And am simply trying to find reason, so I would like to hear the flaws of my logic and have a rational discussion not a flame war.

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[align=center]"When the Persian archers fire, their many arrows blot out the sun!"

- Native of Trachis prior to Battle of Thermopylae

"Good. Then we shall fight in the shade."

-Dionykes, Spartan hoplite[/align]


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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:23 pm 
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I am not saying that getting rid of ToD is the answer as it affects my primary class as well. I hardly ever use it outside of RP. What I am trying to acomplish is getting something done other than debating this on the forums and list. We can say that looks to powerful here but if we do not actually try it how will we know. I like the Dagger of Infinite penetration idea personally it leans toward the deadly acuracy of the Assassin. I would like to see the Assassin claas get a little beefing up. The problem I see with this is people wnat certain classes to remain the same while they neuter others. What I would like to see is someone from the Assassins Guild come up with some write ups for powers and have them play tetsted at all of the parks on certain days so all the players of that park can give feed back on whether or not that specific power is un balancing, or possinbly tweaking the current selections to test those changes out as well so by the time 2008 COM comes around we have at least the ability to say we have tested these and they are not unbalancing to the game. I feel thatthis should be done with all of the classes that people feel need changes. I would like to see us come together in agreement on this item not just for the Assassins but all the classes.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:40 pm 
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Oh, I see.
well then I would like to suggest that the TOD remain as it is for court and quest scenarios, but that you should have the option of putting it on yourself or on your weapon. I believe that most people in a battlegame would choose it for the weapon because they stay safer further away, which will make it a more effective ability, which in turn will lead to it not being an issue of of how hard someone punched.

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[align=center]"When the Persian archers fire, their many arrows blot out the sun!"

- Native of Trachis prior to Battle of Thermopylae

"Good. Then we shall fight in the shade."

-Dionykes, Spartan hoplite[/align]


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