The Kingdom of the Emerald Hills

Brennon posted the COM vote results. Here is the consensed list of items that were passed

1. Require monarch and PM permission to summon monsters in the same way monarch and PM permission is required to play monsters. (BL)

6. Peasant class: Add to limitations: Peasant may not wear enchantments. (WL)

7. Shield size: Remove #8 under shields “Round shields may not be wider than three feet.” (BS)

8. Flails: Require that flail shafts be padded at least half (50%) of their total length. (BS)

9. Shield padding: Reduce padding requirement on shield rims from 1.5" to 1.0". (BS)

10. Daggers: Allow daggers to do 1 point to Armor, even when slashing. (BS)

13. Weapon section: Move all of the requirements for weapons to the Weapons section of the rulebook, including this section that is under Weapon Construction (page . (BS)
MOD: Add note "See equipment construction section for more information"

27. Earthbind spell: Pg 22 Earthbind Change “E: Victim cannot move until each of his legs are struck ten times with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon. . Anyone attempting to free the victim must state .free this leg. while doing so or the hits strike the player as normal.” To “E: Victim cannot move legs until each of his legs are touched 10 times with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon by anyone attempting to free the victim and must state "Free this leg x10" while doing so. Two legs cannot be freed by the same person at the same time. Strikes to a leg from players not attempting to free the victim count as normal hits to the leg.” (EH)
MOD: Add the word "feet" after "cannot move"

33. Monk: Pg 18 Monk 1st level Change “Heal (m) (1/life, Self only)” To “Heal (ex) (1/life, Self only)” (EH)

37. Druid: Pg 33 Druid’s Spell List Change Petrify to a cost of 1 point. (EH)

39. Druid: Pg 33 Druid’s Spell List Change Regeneration 1/game to 1/life. (EH)

40. Druid: Pg 33 Druid’s Spell List Change Call Lightning to a cost of 1 point. (EH)

44. Rule revisions: Install revisions into the rulebook. (BL)
MOD: This actually means "Install the rules revision PROCESS that we use into the rulebook"

46. Throwing daggers: should they have cores? This should be the monarchs' decision since that are ALL reeves qualified. (BL)
MOD: The vote before the CoM ended up being "should we adopt the phrase 'non-rigid' into the projectile rules"

47. Streamers for spell balls: three inch minimum and six inch maximum would be kosher. (BL)
MOD: "Streamers may be no longer than 12 inches"

48. Invulnerability: what takes it away? Terarin composed this list (see below) and it works. It clears up a lot on confusion and is a very nice reference. I know it needs tweaking with the shift from 6.1 playtest to 7th ed rules of play. That minor tweaking could be dome by either Garik, Terarin or myself.
MOD: "Add an enumerated, living list of what removes points of Invulnerability as an appendix to the rulebook to suppliment the wording already in place."

49. Missile block: Change "from striking the blocker" to "from striking any legal target". This clarifies that if the projectile goes on to hit another person the hit still counts. (IM)

51. Arrows: Page 4, Combat Note 7, change "Projectiles" to "Projectiles and arrows" (RW)
MOD: All the "projectiles are not arrows" business is lumped together and fixed as a layout change to the weapons section of the rulebook. This will break up the larger "Projectiles" category into a few seperate sub-headings including "Arrows", "Throwing Weapons", "Javelins", and "Rocks". Classes that currently use Javelins will not have them removed as a result of this change.

52. Arrows: Page 46, Magic Projectile, change Material to "Projectile or Arrow, enchantment cloth", edit rest of entry to read "Projectile or Arrow" (RW)
Grouped with #51

53. Arrows: Page 48, Protection from Projectiles, change "Protects from all non-magic projectiles" to "Protects from all non-magic projectiles and arrows" (RW)
Grouped with #51

57. Spell ball components: Pg 8, Remove: "Magic components used in combat (magical balls, etc) must also be padded and be at least 2.5 inches in diameter." (DS)
Spell ball components: Pg 9, Add at end of projectile section: "Magic components thrown in combat (magical balls, etc) must follow the same safety rules as projectiles but must remain spherical." (DS)

58. Javelins: Pg 9, Change from: "Javelins must strike point first to count as a hit, but must have courtesy padding along their entire length."
Change to: "Javelins must strike point first to count as a hit and cannot be used to slash. A javelin must be legal for melee and have padding along the entire shaft." (DS)

59. Projectiles: Pg 9, Change from: "All projectiles must be at least 2.5" in diameter."
Change to: "Tips of all projectile weapons must not be able to fit through a 2.25" ring." (DS)

60. Weapon covers: Pg 8, Remove: "Weapons must be covered in a durable, opaque cloth."
Pg 4, Add to end of Strike-Legal: "This area must be covered with a durable, opaque cloth." (DS)

61. Bounces: Change from: "A projectile, arrow, or magic ball hitting the ground before it hits its target."
Change to: "A projectile, arrow, or magic ball hitting the ground, tree, or other static object before it hits its target." (DS)
MOD: "A projectile, arrow, or magic ball hitting the ground, a tree, or other static terrain before it hits its target"

67. Daggers: Pg 6 Change Dagger: A slashing or piercing weapon up to 18 inches long. At least twelve inches of its total length must be strike-legal. To Dagger: A slashing or piercing weapon up to 18 inches long. At least ten inches of its total length must be strike-legal. (EH)

69. Reversible spell balls: One of the RW wizards made up a batch of spell balls that can be inverted, effectively allowing him to carry more choices of spell balls within the allowable maximum. So long as no more than 1 spell ball can be a black one, does anyone see a conflict with the rules? I think not, but I promised to air the question. (RW)
MOD: "Allow reversible spellballs for non-restricted spellballs"
Pass 7-1: WL against

Dor Un Avathar
After much debate it was decided that more time was needed to do a head-to-head comparison of Raphaels and Lukes Dors. Observation and comparison will occur until November 1st, at which point an online vote will be held to determine which book to move forward with. At that point any desired changes or corrections will be made to the selected document and it will be officially adopted. Once adopted the book will fall under the same operational procedures as the Rulebook with the Dor being open for revision on odd numbered years and the Rulebook being open for revision on even numbered years.

_________________
A person is smart. People are stupid, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it. - Agent K.

And I would like to add a thank you to Brennon for helpping to facilitate the meeting and to he and Kurse both for keeping the meeting flowing smoothly and helpping to interpret some of the items that were not clear to the circle in the way they were written for submission.

I think that we (Amtgard as a whole) made great progress at Clan and we have shown that the rules revision process works and works well.

_________________
Forest Evergreen

Puppet Master of the EH

"Of course you are Forest. You're like the Mr. Burns of EH." - Finn

(insert titles and awards here)

Wow, I am floored as to how Sins got absolutely nothing specific to the class.

-Dagger blade size of 10" and dealing 1pt damage when slashing
-Throwing weapon circum to 2.25"
-Earthbind wording

are general items available to other classes and yet the sins got ripped on:

No Javelin at 4th. (Shakes fist at RW, NW, DS)
Not even one extra TOD? (Not ONE vote for!?)
Sorry Monks, you're not druidic enough.

And I did not expect venom to pass, so that's not a suprise. So, in class specific items we got nothing?

Way to go Druids, congrats on hitting the jackpot!

WTF!?
S

_________________
The general who advances without seeking fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do service for his sovereign, is the jewel of his kingdom. -Sun Wu

If you give assassins a javeline, then they effectively have every weapon in the game asside from a pole arm (since javelines can be used to melee but are piercing only).

TOD was regarded as a fairly unused ability in battlegames across the Kingdoms and no one saw that raising it to 2 benefited assassins.

Assassins are a very well balanced class.

2pts of armor, a bow, teleport and a shield along with all the throwing daggers i can carry at 6th level. Or ditch the shield and they can sever spirit (assassinate) an opponent.

Add to the the decreased throwing weapon size (only th tip must be 2.25", not the shaft/middle), and you have a very balanced and effective class.

_________________
Forest Evergreen

Puppet Master of the EH

"Of course you are Forest. You're like the Mr. Burns of EH." - Finn

(insert titles and awards here)

Sir Forest,

Am not picking a fight. What's been voted on has been voted on.

A list of who can use what: (And yes Sir, I am certain you know this list, it's for my refference in this topic)
AP's/Paladins: All Melee, javelins
Archer: Dagger, short, long, long or short bow
Assassins: Dagger, short, long, throwing weapons, bow
Barbarians: All melee, short bow, projectile weapons
Magic Users: Dagger, Short, Long, Spear, Staff, Hinged, short bows
Monk: Dagger, short, long, pole arm, staff
Scout:Dagger, short, long, staff, throwing weapons, short bows
Warrior: All melee

Does giving the Sin a javelin really upset the balance of the other classes that have a wide variety of weapons to choose from?

---------------------------------------

TOD, if deemed so unpopular on the field, could have been bumped up to 2 and no one besides a sin would really care then right? IMHO, it isn't always about what we can or can't use in a battlegame. Courts and feast make for a great example.

How many of the monarchs who voted with the belief that TOD was fairly unused (though I heard of more than a fair share being used at the Eagleshire Rooving Battlegame) play/played assassin? Not even one vote!? Weird.

---------------------------------------

6th lvl Sins are as well balanced as a 6th lvl Warrior:

6 Lives
7 pts of armor
Long improved sword and down sword
Large Improved Shield
Javelin
Repair Item (ex) (1/life)

See, I know a 6th war is supposed to be a tank, just like a 6th Sin should be a lethal weapon.

---------------------------------------

So can I use a black rubber band ball in durable opaque cloth with no streamers that won't go through a 2.25" ring as a throwing weapon?

======================

Like I said, it's just sad that sins made a big push, took it to the different e-forums available and only got rulings on things that not only effect their class but a wide variety of others as well, or general overall rulings. Some classes got specific items passed for them and we didn't.

I'm just a little let down is all. Eh. I'll get over it.
S

_________________
The general who advances without seeking fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do service for his sovereign, is the jewel of his kingdom. -Sun Wu

Whereas as things stand, they effectively have every weapon in the game under 4', and can't use madus. Archers and Assassins are the only classes that cannot use any weapons over 4'. I don't see where a 6' stabbing only weapon compares to an 8' pole or a madu.


Ok, so we put the Assassin up against the Barbarian. The Assassin gets Teleport, and can wear enchantments. The Barbarian gets 2 lives, a shield that's more than twice as large, polearms, madus, reach weapons, javelins and boulders, and immunity to Subdual.

Ok, so we put the Assassin up against the Archer. The Assassin gets Teleport and throwing weapons. The archer gets an extra life, can kill a Berserk Barbarian or any unenchanted player apart from a Warrior on a torso hit, regardless of armor, can wear an extra point of armor, and can destroy shields with his arrows.

Ok, so we put the Assassin up against the Scout. The Assassin gets Teleport. The scout gets staffs, Heal, Camouflage, Earth Bind (or a short bow, if the Assassin gives that up to get Trap), and Attuned.

Which of these classes is the Assassin balanced against, again? The only thing Assassin has going for it is Teleport. Other than that, they get to pick which abilities (that other classes already have) they're going to give up to get other abilities (that other classes already have).

(Poison Weapon is, uh... something. But you can only pick it if you give up the two other abilities, each of which are almost always more powerful.)

I'd say all of them. Assassins are well balanced. They have choices. they can use poison to kill on a wound. they can use a bow, they can carry throwing daggers, which are easy to throw quickly, they can teleport out of a bad situation, they can sever spirit, they can use a shield.

They are not as armored as a warrior, but can do far more damage at range.

They do not have as many arrow types and damage as an archer, but they are not nearly as underpowered if the bow is warped, or destroyed.

Yes barbars get shields and extra lives, but no enchantments. And on those last 2 lives no shield. That makes a bow very useful.

We can spend all day bouncing back and forth on what ifs and match ups, but in the end assassins were not depowered from 6.0 to 7.0 and were given the assassinate ability which is a very nice upgrade.

I was not a voting member, but I did agree that assassins did not need the class specific changes requested. But they did benefit from other rule changes.

_________________
Forest Evergreen

Puppet Master of the EH

"Of course you are Forest. You're like the Mr. Burns of EH." - Finn

(insert titles and awards here)

Sir Forest, you make an excellent point of how it will be pointless to argue the point of why something would or wouldn't work.

Thanks again for everything!

-------
x-posted to Esam
-------

Randall,

Just wanted to get this off my chest before I chicken out. You make a good point about how everything went well except for the proxy voting. Bummer. I wasn't even in the same state let alone the same event so I won't dare attempt dictate how things ran at the meeting but I will share the one urgent thought that has been running in my noobish little mind.

First off, congrats all for making the meeting work out well. I want to really thank Tolken for being on top of things for the EH. I feel he provided all the representation our kingdom could have ever expected. Thanks Tolken. Thank you Sir Forest and Queen Reine for being there and doing your thing.

---------------My conspiracy theory------------------

I am a 'role-playing' assassin and it's my job to come up with as many 'what-if' scenarios in regards to plots, ploys, and under handedness. So this is what has been running through my mind.

I am flustered that none of the menial rulings for Assassins were passed because it was possibly personal. I could imagine Sir Brennon phrasing the rules that were up for vote in such a manner that made them look erroneous and weren’t required.

I fear that it was all a rouse to get back to the current GM of Sins here in the Emerald Hills, Sir Delphos (my knight); possibly the oldest playing assassin in all of amtgard. What horrendous deed could Sir Delphos have procured to cause such a turbulent situation in our kingdom to upset the meetings mediator? He is accused of circumventing the Circle of Knights and knighting two 'master serpents' per the current queens request.

I know nothing about the how the Circle of Knights is run, who is in charge. But I do know where certain lines are loosely drawn, who is friends with whom, and I can read our corpora and see that no rule was broken. It's said that 'Tradition' was smeared that night. For this, I have no sincere answer.

I realize I don't want to be a knight. Too much bs for it to be worth anything to me anymore. I once looked up at those who are idealized to serve and protect and all I've seen are the cliques and personal vendettas held by many involved.

So yeah, I worry that somehow, to get back at Sir Delphos [GM of A's] all items on the agenda that were specific to the sins were scrubbed not because they are unnecessary but because it would serve as a way to provoke Sir Delphos' ire.

This is truly my point. I pray that I am being ignorantly selfish and that this meeting was truly a gathering of like-minded monarchs wanting to do the best for the game and not making it some personal way to leave their own individual mark/scar on the game.

So again, I think the best way to show my gratitude to all involved is to be as upfront and honest about my opinion than to feign double standards - a smile one day and a cruel word in secret the next.

Thanks and regards all,
Sutra – I just want to play

_________________
The general who advances without seeking fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do service for his sovereign, is the jewel of his kingdom. -Sun Wu

Hey none of the changes the Healers aked for got passed does that mean they are out to get us too. We voted on this at an allthing as hopefully the other kingdoms did as well. I have faith that Reine voted the way our kingdom did. If they did not pass or get our votes perhaps you did not convince enough people on your side of the arguement. Just my 2 cents.

_________________
Baronet Typhus Deathcaller
Guildmaster of Healers
Master Healer
Kracker Baron

Sutra,

Do you really think that the EH was the only kingdom that has unsatisfied assassins? Delphos is not a big enough fish in the inter-kingdom scheme of things for someone to have even *thought* of trying to use a CoM meeting as a tool of vengeance.

_________________
"And in the end, we decide if we're remembered for what happened to us or for what we did with it."
~ R. K. Milholland

Having been there I can say that Brennon had no bearing on the vote for the Assassin specific items. Everyone at the meeting had a hard copy of the rule proposals in fromt of them to read and across the board it was agreed that neither an extra TOD or javilines were needed for the class. Most people did agree that TOD was out of place in a game that avoided person to person contact and would like to see a useful replacement ability for TOD for the 2008 vote.

Like Typhus said, healers got no changes either. Both healer and assassing are still useful classes. And neither is broken or is in desperate need of a fix. I am sure players of both classes would like to tweak some of the class abilities, but I doubt people will stop playing either one due to the lack of change.

_________________
Forest Evergreen

Puppet Master of the EH

"Of course you are Forest. You're like the Mr. Burns of EH." - Finn

(insert titles and awards here)

Yes I am aware we are not the only kingdom or class who didn't get neat gadgets to allocate to their personas. I know I will get over this and live on. I just wanted to throw my little tiff and get on with the show.

I have publically and sincerly thanked all involved for making the COM a success. And I feel that being as frank as possible would be more respectable to anyone than to lie and say all is well.

X-Posted from Esam and slightly edited to fit in this thread:

----------------------

TOD is not open license for anyone to be punching TOD's out at random. That is surely an extreme what if scenario your refferencing to I hope.

A nut shot is legal tender but it's not suggested, right? So why would any reeve let a TOD'ing Mike Tyson get away with it. Inappropriate contact should be dealt with wether it's in the form of a TOD or a Resurect, right!?

You [Not anyone here] say the game is 'a distinctly no personal contact game', so what do you call placing enchantments or healing people? Impersonal contact? How about carrying a subdued prisoner? You won't be able to carry your wounded anymore.

So if the next COM does agree on nixing all personal contact, then we might as well go back to sitting at a table rolling dice, or better yet make our phys reps on notecards!

Noob of the Emerald Hills,
S

------------

I'm done bitching. Thanks all for your time. See ya'll on the flip side.

Regards
S the Whiny Sin

_________________
The general who advances without seeking fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do service for his sovereign, is the jewel of his kingdom. -Sun Wu

The main point to make is that in all your examples, the individual would be willingly enagging in physical contact. With TOD it is resisted contact during combat.

And my real argument is that it just isn't that useful and I'd like to see the assassin class get a replacement ability that is actually useful on the field.

_________________
Forest Evergreen

Puppet Master of the EH

"Of course you are Forest. You're like the Mr. Burns of EH." - Finn

(insert titles and awards here)

My thoughts on touch of death.

Touch of death, while mostly useless on the battlefield, is the perfect representation of an assassins abilities. The assassin gets to use most weapons, gets a shield and armor. ToD is the ability that shows the assassins ability to kill someone while they are unarmed. Assassins are supposed to be walking weapons meaning they can pick up most anything and fight with it or if nothing else, kill with their bare hands. While to me ToD is nothing more than a great ability at an event and worthless elsewhere it is a weapon that an assassin deserves. Also on the note of being a walking weapon assassins are also extremely deadly at a distance. In 6.0 they could use any throwing weapon (bow, daggers, javelins) except for boulders which seemed to be mostly barbarian anyways. By taking the javalin away the assassins ability to kill from a distance has been hindered. Granted they are not all that commonplace and can't compare with a polearm but they are still that distance attack that assassins love so dearly, at least me. Anyways, just my thoughts.

-Septumus

_________________
I have centuries to discover the things that make you whimper and millennia to make you enjoy them.

If an Assassin picks his abilities to mimic Scout as closely as possible, he ends up just like a Scout, only with several huge abilities missing, and Teleport. Yes, an Assassin is more versatile than Scout - but "versatility" isn't an advantage when you have the option to be almost as powerful as a Scout, or instead to take other, less useful abilities.


That is incorrect.


I wasn't trying to present a "what if." I was trying to present examples of how "2 points of armor, a bow, Teleport, a small shield, and throwing daggers," which you claim is "well balanced," cannot compete with three classes. I'm sorry that I put Scout last - I'm really interested in your defense of how Teleport is better than a staff, Heal, Camouflage, Earth Bind, and Attuned.