The Kingdom of the Emerald Hills

So there is a movement to get rid of TOD's because they open the causeway for illegal contact i.e. sexual or physical abuse. Of course TOD is seen as the only contact that is uninvited by the recipient, allowing for casting of touch enchantments and carrying your wounded to be considered legal.

I'm sure many opponents will begin to disallow themselves to be dragged or pushed as a subdued or killed prisoner. Let alone be touched in a manner that is not friendly.

So I won't let that AP or wizard touch me when they want to sever spirit, reanimate, or steal a life of mine, cause it's certain to lead to getting molested. It's contact I'd like to avoid.

By deleting TOD's physical approach and implementation, then we essentially make this game an almost touch free zone. Not a bad goal to strive for. I think I'd rather get TOD'ed quietly during court than facing off with some guy bent on hurting me on the ditch field.

Funny, I've seen less 'violent' TOD's then madu/sword jabs to the ribs. Eh.

So we'd be essentially ridding
AP's 1/Life
Sins 1/Game
Monk 1/Game
Healer 1/Game (Cost 1/Max 4)*
Wizard 1/Game (Cost 1/Max 4)*
*Does this mean they can have up to four per game?

Per the Dor Un Avathar 7
Deep Dwellers 6/Game @ 4th Lvl
Plaguer 1/Game @ 6th

Per the Dor Un Avathar 8
(Yes I know it's not approved yet)
Banshee - unlimited @ 5th
Water Elemental 3/Game
Mummy - unlimited
Plaguer 5/game @ 4th
Poltergeist 12/game (unlimited @ 6th)
Skeleton Warrior 1/game
Spectre - Unlimited
Voidstalker 3/game

By Night they dance
Revenant - Unlimited
Shade - Unlimited

So what's the best alternative to a physical contact TOD? Extended through weapon? Replace it with a Dagger of Infinite Penetration type special dagger 1/game? Maybe we can emulate a dim mak (death touch) by waving our fist in an opponents general direction, like a finger of death, and say some snazzy 'incantation' or something.

What do ya'll think? We have two years to make this ruling as specific and rational as possible. Might as well get started now right?

Regards
S

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The general who advances without seeking fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do service for his sovereign, is the jewel of his kingdom. -Sun Wu

Your poll is hosed.

It's disingenuous to claim that trying to discharge a Touch of Death on someone who is actively attempting to hit you with a sword or polearm is identical to trying to discharge a Steal Life on someone who is trying to walk off the field. On the plus side, most of the 'violent' Touch of Death attempts I've seen have been more dangerous to the attempter, not the attemptee.

The poll is hosed? Actually, I thought I was trying to get some ideas on how we can improve on the TOD so that it fits in with the movement to make amtgard a 'personal contact' free zone.

It's based on the arguement that we should avoid all types of uninvited physcial contact.

It's about any contact that isn't voluntary, distinguising between let's say a TOD or healing someone, right?

So TOD is dangerous, fine, I'm trying to see what the alternatives are.

I'ma go look the word disingenuous now.
S

_________________
The general who advances without seeking fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do service for his sovereign, is the jewel of his kingdom. -Sun Wu

By "your poll is hosed" I mean "I cannot vote in your poll, and I suspect others might have the same problem."

I suppose if someone is making the argument that "we should avoid all types of uninvited physical contact," then yes, you're doing an excellent job of dismantling that argument. I didn't know someone was advancing that argument. Maybe they forgot to use the word "aggressive" when they were describing Touch of Death?

Personally, I see a distinction between Touch of Death and Steal Life. It's not, to me, "about any contact that isn't voluntary." It's about an ability that requires you to get within arm's length of someone who is trying to hit you with a stick and at the same time actively avoid allowing you to touch them. I don't think it's very dangerous, but I do feel that the danger posed by Touch of Death is unique.

Out of curiosity, if someone is trying to discharge a Touch of Death on me, and I am unarmed, am I allowed to kick them in the chest to keep them from touching me with their hand?

Ah, that kind of hosed. So how would you vote?

Yeah, the topic stemed from a comment made on ESam that I needed clarification on.

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Made by Koderellin:

"It had nothing to do with TOD being too powerful. It had to do with the fact that TOD itself is an anomalous power in a distinctly no personal contact game. Basically, it's a license for Brennon to punch people and get away with it. Any direct physical contact between people should be avoided; and the CoM unanimously agreed that increasing the possibility of this was not in the best interests of the game. "

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I replied:

"How is this not precise enough to be seriously voted on? I think Tolken tends to be rather concise and articulate, especially when it comes to rulings.

TOD is not open license for Sir Brennon or anyone else to be punching TOD's out at random. That is surely an extreme what if scenario your refferencing to I hope.

A nut shot is legal tender but it's not suggested, right? So why would any reeve let a TOD'ing Mike Tyson get away with it. Inappropriate contact should be dealt with wether it's in the form of a TOD or a Resurect, right!?

You say the game is 'a distinctly no personal contact game', so what do you call placing enchantments or healing people? Impersonal contact? How about carrying a subdued prisoner? You won't be able to carry your wounded anymore."

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To which K replied:

"I'm sorry. I was imprecise. It is a no-offensive personal contact game. There. Now that my wording has been changed, it clears up this confusion."

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Not trying to use it out of context, it's a very valid concern, but I felt it was directed specifically towards the assassin TOD and somehow conveniently forgotting about all the other non-sin 'touchy feely' abilities out there.

So if we want to venutre into an eventual 'no contact' game, we should incorporate the change across the board, or couldn't it be easily misconscrued as backwards thinking to limit one contact ability but not others?

Regards
S

_________________
The general who advances without seeking fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do service for his sovereign, is the jewel of his kingdom. -Sun Wu

I don't play Assassin, so I have no idea what's best for Assassin. I'd rather see Touch of Death gone, and Poison Weapon and Assassinate made more effective / available, myself.


I don't want to venture into a 'no contact' game. I see a difference between Touch of Death and Steal Life. If you don't, I don't know how to fix that.

My problem with Touch of Death is that it gives you a license to try to touch my arm with your hand to cause a game effect, but it does not give me a license to touch your arm with my hand to prevent you from touching my arm with your hand.

No worries, I'll can see both sides of the issue really.

What about when the goal of the battlegame is to capture or rescue a person from said team/location/whatever and you have to escort or 'force' them to come with you by carrying?

I've been yielded, killed, and risen to fight again in the heat of battle and have felt the nervous energy from the frantic caster trying to not get killed.

So, can your example of the 'game effect' contact that you'd like to avoid be compared to Cure Disease?

Say I'm playing a were-something and want to avoid being cured? Is it the same? It can be used on a living or dead victim, though I'm sure it's easier to use it on a non resistant target.

I know TOD is an ability to kill a target while other abilities are typically used after the target is dead, barring heals, enchantments, etc. and can see the deliniation between the types of contact.

But the bottom line is, contact, in the heat of battle or not can still be a cause for grief. I mean, let's say TOD is removed. Would it spark people to look for other negative effect/involuntary abilties to 'abuse' if they don't have TOD to use?

I can imagine some AP or Paladin slamming their hand unto someones chest/shoulder while they sever spirit or resurrect a target.

Regards
S

_________________
The general who advances without seeking fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do service for his sovereign, is the jewel of his kingdom. -Sun Wu

And how fast was the dude running when he cast Reanimate?


I don't know, how fast can you run while casting Cure Disease?


You would... take a giant step backward and make them start the spell again after they walk toward you?


Sure, assholes will take any excuse to be assholes. My problem with Touch of Death is not "it gives people an excuse to be assholes." My problem with Touch of Death is that it gives people a reason to be assholes. If I punch you in the nuts when I'm healing you, that doesn't make you any more healed. If you're trying to dodge my Touch of Death, so I lunge at you really fast, that does make it more likely that you'll die. On the other hand, if you're trying to touch me to discharge your Touch of Death, and I punch you in the forearm to keep you from touching me, I can be banned from Amtgard forever.


What difference does it make that you can imagine this thing?

KodiaK / Sutra

I am currently trying to get polling fixed as well on another foum, IM140 apparently has issues with using polling from the generic setup.

On it...here we go...

IM140 FORUM

Tony

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[align=center]Sirrakhis Larethian of the Emerald Hills
G R E E N D R A G O N S
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Touch spells do not give people the license to be assholes
I can legaly touch people in the real world
But if I hit them or touch them inapprpriatly then I have broke the law
How is this any different?
Stop being so fucking sensitive